And a Catholic Page on Facebook Jumps the Shark

[Doom]

One of the Catholic pages on Facebook that I follow (and have Top Fan status) just lost me a follower today when it posted an article claiming that the "The Novus Ordo Is Illicit", nope sorry. The Novus Ordo was rightfully promulgated by a legitimately elected Pope who was attempting to implement a liturgical reform mandated by an ecumenical council. If that isn't good enough for you, you're a schismatic in all but name. You can criticize the Novus Ordo and its alleged inadequacies, you can advocate a reform of the reform" which would make it more similar to the Tridentine Mass, you can complain that it sometimes or even often isn't said with sufficient reverence, but you can't say it is illicit or illegitimate in any way simply in and of itself. I unfollowed the page.

[Stella]

That's a shame for you. Makes you wonder how many of their followers will jump with them. Personally I blame the high ranking Bishops and Cardinals that have planted the seeds that inevitably end up in schisms. They command authority by deception.

[peregrinator]

What was the context?

[ProZak]

What was the context?

Why would context matter in such a case? If you are calling something invalid that the Church has declared valid, how can context make a difference? Like those who say recieving in the hands is an abomination...

[Doom]

What was the context?

What context could make it an acceptable statement? I didn't read the article, I simply read the title. This came after months of things condemning "the Novus Ordo Church" and several statements condemning things that the Magisterium has approved, such as the "Catholic Charismatic Rewenal" which has had the blessing of several Popes.

[ProZak]

While the Church has approved the Charismatic Renewal, that's not to say there's not some concerns within it. Case in point, Neal Lozano's "Unbound" conferences and workshops are gaining popularity in the Church, based off the book of the same title he wrote. I got the book sometime in late 2019, the title intrigued me when I saw it at a bookstore. I went to the conference when it came to Cleveland in March of 2020. When I was reading the book I had a huge red flag pop uo in my mind when Neal mentioned the "prophet" Bob Jones. Bob Jones was part of the "Kansas City Prophets" that was hugely popular in the 90's, the guy made numerous false prophecies and involved in sexual scandals. So I asked Neal about it at the conference, he said that it was just some guy who prophesied over his wife. I then asked if he knew that this guy was involved with the Kansas City Prophets that were exposed by Hank Hanegraaff in his book "Counterfeit Revival." He expressed his disdain for Hank and considered John Wimber to be a "Great Man." John Wimber founded the Vineyard churches and provided a platform for every false prophet and nut job to come speak and teach at his church. At that point I tuned out mentally and regretted going to that conference.

[Doom]

This page condemns the movement as heretical

[peregrinator]

What was the context?

What context could make it an acceptable statement? I didn't read the article, I simply read the title. This came after months of things condemning "the Novus Ordo Church" and several statements condemning things that the Magisterium has approved, such as the "Catholic Charismatic Rewenal" which has had the blessing of several Popes.

Well, one might hold that the Novus Ordo is itself licit while the way that it was imposed upon the Roman Church was not - indeed, if we hold what Summorum Pontificum says about the Roman Rite, we can certainly say that forbidding the older Missal was ultra vires and thus, illicit. Or that the "reform" was illicit, in that the Novus Ordo is not the fruit of a reform but is a wholly new rite.

[peregrinator]

What was the context?

Why would context matter in such a case? If you are calling something invalid that the Church has declared valid, how can context make a difference? Like those who say recieving in the hands is an abomination...

Validity and liceity are two separate (if sometimes related) things - a Mass being valid does not at all mean that it is necessarily licit: for example, priests of the SSPX celebrate Mass validly but illicitly; for a priest to deliberately alter the words of the Missal would not invalidate the Mass (well, depending on what words he alters!) but it would render it illicit; etc.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

This page condemns the movement as heretical

Where is Beng when you need him?

[Doom]

Ha ha! I l almost started wondering if Beng is the one wrong that page when all the anti-charismatic stuff started getting posted.

[anawim]

One of the Catholic pages on Facebook that I follow (and have Top Fan status) just lost me a follower today when it posted an article claiming that the "The Novus Ordo Is Illicit", nope sorry. The Novus Ordo was rightfully promulgated by a legitimately elected Pope who was attempting to implement a liturgical reform mandated by an ecumenical council. If that isn't good enough for you, you're a schismatic in all but name. You can criticize the Novus Ordo and its alleged inadequacies, you can advocate a reform of the reform" which would make it more similar to the Tridentine Mass, you can complain that it sometimes or even often isn't said with sufficient reverence, but you can't say it is illicit or illegitimate in any way simply in and of itself. I unfollowed the page.

Which one is it?

[Doom]

I would rather not name it

[Kage_ar]

While the Church has approved the Charismatic Renewal, that's not to say there's not some concerns within it. Case in point, Neal Lozano's "Unbound" conferences and workshops are gaining popularity in the Church, based off the book of the same title he wrote. I got the book sometime in late 2019, the title intrigued me when I saw it at a bookstore. I went to the conference when it came to Cleveland in March of 2020. When I was reading the book I had a huge red flag pop uo in my mind when Neal mentioned the "prophet" Bob Jones. Bob Jones was part of the "Kansas City Prophets" that was hugely popular in the 90's, the guy made numerous false prophecies and involved in sexual scandals. So I asked Neal about it at the conference, he said that it was just some guy who prophesied over his wife. I then asked if he knew that this guy was involved with the Kansas City Prophets that were exposed by Hank Hanegraaff in his book "Counterfeit Revival." He expressed his disdain for Hank and considered John Wimber to be a "Great Man." John Wimber founded the Vineyard churches and provided a platform for every false prophet and nut job to come speak and teach at his church. At that point I tuned out mentally and regretted going to that conference.

Have you followed the New Apostolic Revival that is infecting the Charismatic movement?

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/60595187

I have close family and friends who have fallen into this heretical cult, so, I do a lot of reading and study of it. The podcast "Heaven Bent" has also done an excellent job exposing this mess.

[ProZak]

Yes, ugh!

[ProZak]

This what you're talking about?

https://youtu.be/CwUyVjmxe8I?si=7Q7cb11YEpF-27Y5

[Kage_ar]

This what you're talking about?

https://youtu.be/CwUyVjmxe8I?si=7Q7cb11YEpF-27Y5

See that and raise you (and I have family/friends in this specific congregation )

https://showmethetoes.com/

[ProZak]

I was part of an Anglican Charismatic church back in the 90's, they were very much into the "Toronto Blessing" and the like. I stayed on the peripheral side of things, I was very apprehensive of giving myself over to those practices. Some saw me as an obstinate doubter for that, so be it. While the Catholic Church approves the Charismatic Renewal, I have serious reservations about practices there as well, especially the practice of being "Slain in the Spirit!"

[Kage_ar]

I was part of an Anglican Charismatic church back in the 90's, they were very much into the "Toronto Blessing" and the like. I stayed on the peripheral side of things, I was very apprehensive of giving myself over to those practices. Some saw me as an obstinate doubter for that, so be it. While the Catholic Church approves the Charismatic Renewal, I have serious reservations about practices there as well, especially the practice of being "Slain in the Spirit!"

You would likely enjoy the first season of the Heaven Bent podcast. It is all about the Toronto Blessing.

[ProZak]

I thoroughly enjoy Hank Hanegraaff's audio book "Counterfeit Revival", edutainment at it's finest!