Jimmy Akin on Predestination

[Stella]

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... estination

A thing I've become convinced of when responding to Calvinists in internet forums, is that it is very hard to hold to the belief that I'm one of the elect while consequently respecting the fate of those I believe are not elected. They always seem to default to an attitude that others aren't doing faith right like they are and should try harder to be like them.

I see in Vatican II, a better understanding of how to honour predestination by withdrawing from proselytising and concentrating on being witnesses who will attract the elect to Jesus if they are called.

[Doom]

Okay, I'm going to go off on a bit of a rant here....this is one of my particular hobby horses and I am going to ride it for the next few minutes.

Some points:
1. The word "Calvinist" originated as an insult from Lutherans (and the word Lutheran was originally an insult too which is why many Lutherans reject the level, foolish as I think that is), if someone calls himself a Calvinist, I guess that is okay, but most prefer to be called "Reformed" (if they follow the Dutch tradition) or Presbyterian (if they follow the Scottish tradition), which is why I tend to avoid the word, the Reformed tradition did not begin with, and absolutely did not end with, the person of John Calvin
2. Calvinism, if we are going to use the term, refers to a lot more than just a particular doctrine of predestination, The Institutes covers every theological topic under the sun and stakes out unique positions on them all. Calvinism is an entire system, it does not just encompass one issue, however important.

3. And this is the most important, according to many Catholic theologians, including Augustine and Aquinas (two of the most prestigious) Calvin is more right than he is wrong, on the issue of Predestination. His problem is more a lack of nuance and balance than it is just being completely wrong through and through. The naive interpretations of TULIP are unacceptable. But there are more sophisticated versions out there that are almost entirely consistent with Catholicism, which is why conversions to Catholicism from Reformed thinkers are more common than conversion from say Orthodoxy or Anglo Catholics in the Anglican Church.


By no means do Catholics have to go to war against Calvin and his doctrine of predestination

By the way, traditional Reformed theology does not encourage one to believe that one is among the elect, but rather to seek "signs of election" for reassurance, ultimately the elect are known only to God.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Being omniscient, God knows in advance whether they will freely choose to cooperate with his grace, and he predestines them to salvation based on this foreknowledge. Non-Calvinists often argue that this is what Paul is referring to when he says, “Those whom [God] foreknew he also predestined.”

This is somewhat problematic in that it places potentiality in the Godhead.

[Doom]

Do you think the Molinist idea of middle knowledge avoids that problem?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Not really, but Pope Paul V said it can't be condemned until the De Auxiliis committee reports back. After 400 years, I'm not holding my breath.

[Stella]

By the way, traditional Reformed theology does not encourage one to believe that one is among the elect, but rather to seek "signs of election" for reassurance, ultimately the elect are known only to God.

When you get talking to many Reformed though, they'll strongly display an absolute assurance of their own election and equal assurance of others they consider damned.

Also by the way, when I was growing up if someone called us Roman Catholic my mother would correct them and say we are Catholic period. Apparently Roman Catholic began as an insult by Protestants.

[Doom]

By the way, traditional Reformed theology does not encourage one to believe that one is among the elect, but rather to seek "signs of election" for reassurance, ultimately the elect are known only to God.

When you get talking to many Reformed though, they'll strongly display an absolute assurance of their own election and equal assurance of others they consider damned.

Also by the way, when I was growing up if someone called us Roman Catholic my mother would correct them and say we are Catholic period. Apparently Roman Catholic began as an insult by Protestants.

Roman Catholic absolutely is an insult, Protestants say that as a way of taking the word "Catholic" for themselves, the phrase "Roman Catholic" means "you Catholics are just followers of the Pope you're just a small sect, WE Protestants are the REAL Catholics". They mean the same thing when they call Catholic schools "parochial schools", Protestant schools are just "schools", but Catholic schools are "parochial".


But it doesn't matter what any Reformed Christian might say, if you ask the average Catholic at your parish you'll likely hear that Transubstantiation is false, that abortion should be allowed, that the Church should offer sacramental marriage to gay couples, and that cohabitation is perfectly fine, etc. What people say they think doesn't have anything to do with what the actual church documents and traditions say. So when I say "The Reformed tradition says x, y and z" I am talking about what the actual traditional teachings have said, not what some moron in the pews thinks. That is the only fair standard.

[peregrinator]

At one point in time "Roman Catholic" might have been an insult but it isn't really any more.

[Doom]

Roman Catholic is a contradiction in terms, you are either Roman (the follower of a sect or denomination which has the Pope as its head) or you are Catholic and belong to the universal Church founded by Christ. You cannot be both at the same time.

Latin Catholic is not an insult but a descriptive, a Catholic who belongs to the Latin Church, but how could the term "Roman Catholic" possibly apply to members of the 23 other sui generis Churches? Does it make sense to say that Byzantine or Albanian Catholic is "Roman"? I don't think it does.

[peregrinator]

If we would define and describe this true Church of Jesus Christ - which is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church - we shall find nothing more noble, more sublime, or more divine than the expression "the Mystical Body of Christ" - an expression which springs from and is, as it were, the fair flowering of the repeated teaching of the Sacred Scriptures and the Holy Fathers.

Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Pax argued endlessly on this topic (and of course many others!). He was adamant that "Roman Catholic" was the correct term and not perjorative.

[peregrinator]

I don't want to argue about it but I don't think it's a pejorative any more. Neither is, e.g. Jesuit for a member of the Society of Jesus. Now I understand Catholics of non-Latin rites don't like it and that's fine for them (in general one should call people what they want to be called, as long as it's not a lie or something vulgar or whatever), but I'm not offended to be called "Roman Catholic".