Does God love EVERYONE?

[BobCatholic]

We're good (or better) because God loves us

But there's something missing.

Apparently God can't love someone out of hell.

[peregrinator]

That's the argument for Universalism. I reject that.

Which part do you reject? That God loves all or that God's love makes us better?

[Doom]

That's the argument for Universalism. I reject that.

NO! The argument you are making is "if God loved everyone, then everyone would be saved, everyone is not saved, therefore God doesn't love everyone" THAT is the argument Calvinists make for limited atonement. Your error is the first step "If God loves everyone, then everyone would be saved" this assumption is FALSE.

[BobCatholic]

That's the argument for Universalism. I reject that.

Which part do you reject? That God loves all or that God's love makes us better?

I reject that all are saved.

I question if God's love makes us better. If God loves all, then those in hell, are loved by God and would be made better. But they're still in hell, how are they made better?

[BobCatholic]

That's the argument for Universalism. I reject that.

NO! The argument you are making is "if God loved everyone, then everyone would be saved, everyone is not saved, therefore God doesn't love everyone" THAT is the argument Calvinists make for limited atonement. Your error is the first step "If God loves everyone, then everyone would be saved" this assumption is FALSE.

Nope. I question if God's love makes people better. If it did, everyone would get better.
All people are not getting better so I don't know if God loves everyone or if God's love makes people better. I don't know what I'm missing here.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

As I noted above, you're missing a piece here. When something is made better, it is God's love that accomplishes that. But rational creatures can choose to stop that process from taking effect. So Doom has the wrong Calvinist doctrine here--it's actually the idea of Irresistible Grace that's in play here. Creatures can and do resist God's grace and so are not made better.

[Doom]

As I noted above, you're missing a piece here. When something is made better, it is God's love that accomplishes that. But rational creatures can choose to stop that process from taking effect. So Doom has the wrong Calvinist doctrine here--it's actually the idea of Irresistible Grace that's in play here. Creatures can and do resist God's grace and so are not made better.

Nope, I'm not wrong, I have read the Institutes and conversed with enough believers in Reformed theology who make exactly the argument I just gave to justify not just Limited Atonement but every part of TULIP. The argument is that God must not love everyone because God's love is perfect and always transforms everyone, so the only possible explanation for why everyone isn't saved is that God doesn't love everyone, he loves only the elect, Christ died only for the elect, and only the elect are saved.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Bob is not struggling with the fact that all are not saved. His confusion, as I understand it, is over the fact that God truly does love the devil and the damned, but that they don't get better. That they must get better if God loves them is irresistible grace.

[peregrinator]

I question if God's love makes us better. If God loves all, then those in hell, are loved by God and would be made better. But they're still in hell, how are they made better?

They aren't made better because they are resisting His grace by persisting in sin.

[Doom]

Bob is not struggling with the fact that all are not saved. His confusion, as I understand it, is over the fact that God truly does love the devil and the damned, but that they don't get better. That they must get better if God loves them is irresistible grace.

No, he is trying to argue against the idea of universal salvation by saying that the lack of universal salvation must mean God doesn't love everyone. And that is the leads to TULIP

[peregrinator]

I thought he was arguing against the idea that God's love makes one better.

What I'm trying to get is evidence I can use against someone who says that God's love transforms people into the better. If that were true, none of them would be in hell.

[BobCatholic]

As I noted above, you're missing a piece here. When something is made better, it is God's love that accomplishes that. But rational creatures can choose to stop that process from taking effect. So Doom has the wrong Calvinist doctrine here--it's actually the idea of Irresistible Grace that's in play here. Creatures can and do resist God's grace and so are not made better.

Here's the problem. People are imperfect. How does one know if they're cooperating with God's grace good enough for it to actually....make them better.

They don't.

So yes, God's grace is resistible - and people can go to hell for purposely rejecting God's love.

I'm talking about the people who struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and struggle and still fail to cooperate good enough and go to hell.

It is THOSE people I ask "how did God's love make them better"? They didn't get better - they're in hell.

[gherkin]

What do you mean when you say they struggle? Are they going to confession with a firm purpose of amendment? Before they die, do they receive, or at least wish to receive (if it's impossible at that moment), the last sacraments? If yes, then there's no reason to think they go to hell.

There's way too much involved in spiritual direction for me to try to insert anything intelligent here, but I'd say such people really need to be seeking out a good spiritual director and getting help with their struggles, too.

But the easy answer for a lot of people in the situation you're describing is to get some accountability so that they will actually be able to lay off the internet porn. For example, get a gabb phone so they can text and call, but don't have internet access on it. People seem to think they're struggling against sin, but keep the means readily available 24/7. I'm just picking one common example here, obviously.

[BobCatholic]

What do you mean when you say they struggle?

The person who takes 20 years to conquer a bad habit.
The person who takes 20 years to overcome a vice.
The person who confesses the same sins over and over.

[gherkin]

OK, but did you read the rest of my post?

PS, we pretty much all confess the same sins over and over and over again. Find me someone who shouldn't be confessing to Pride every confession (for example), and I'll tell you who is the next saint on the calendar.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

What do you mean when you say they struggle?

The person who takes 20 years to conquer a bad habit.
The person who takes 20 years to overcome a vice.
The person who confesses the same sins over and over.

God doesn't heal us instantly. Sometimes he's making progress in our lives in places we don't even realize.

Every time we sin, it's an opportunity to recognize that we are not as strong as we think we are or would like to be, and then return in humility to the Father.

Everyone confesses the same sins over and over. Please do not go out and commit new ones just to have something else to confess!

And gherkin is r... I mean, sometimes recovery from sin does require major changes in the way we live.

[BobCatholic]

OK, but did you read the rest of my post?

I can't find a spiritual director.

I struggle with my own things.

[gherkin]

OK, but did you read the rest of my post?

I can't find a spiritual director.

I struggle with my own things.

OK, but did you read the rest of my post? You're inferring that because someone struggles with the same sin over and over, that means he goes to hell when he dies. But this does not follow.

[Vern Humphrey]

OK, but did you read the rest of my post?

I can't find a spiritual director.

I struggle with my own things.

OK, but did you read the rest of my post? You're inferring that because someone struggles with the same sin over and over, that means he goes to hell when he dies. But this does not follow.

Depends on how much he struggles. I have a cousin who weighs 383 pounds and claims he "struggles with obesity." One time I asked him, "How many calories have you consumed today?"

He didn't know. Ain't much of a struggle if you don't even count caloriues1

[gherkin]

I can't find a spiritual director.

I struggle with my own things.

OK, but did you read the rest of my post? You're inferring that because someone struggles with the same sin over and over, that means he goes to hell when he dies. But this does not follow.

Depends on how much he struggles. I have a cousin who weighs 383 pounds and claims he "struggles with obesity." One time I asked him, "How many calories have you consumed today?"

He didn't know. Ain't much of a struggle if you don't even count caloriues1

Well, obesity isn't a sin, so it's not relevant. Possibly he struggles with gluttony, but you and I couldn't make any such judgment from the outside. But even if he's consistently sinning by eating intemperately, it does not follow that he'll go to hell, assuming he makes good confessions with at least attrition. Again, it is simply not implied that a person who fails to make disernible improvements is necessarily hellbound. That possibility is always there for all of us, of course, and it would be unkind to suggest otherwise. But again, I expect you're confessing the same sins over and over in confession, too, and perhaps making equally little progress on them.