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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 6:20 pm It was widely accepted, even at the time, by everyone but the English, that Joan's trial was a miscarriage of justice. It did not follow Church law; it was a politically motivated attack. Pointing to her example doesn't do much good.

Can you give some more examples of the countless number?

Famous ones that come to mind are St Columba, Galileo, St Mary McKillop. Googling I find St Athanasius excommunicated by Pope Liberius. Pope Leo I was excommunicated by Dioscorus, Patriarch of Alexandria and ten bishops.

Stella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:09 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 3:45 pm You're not exactly helping your quest to evangelize us with the Gospel of Pope Francis by posting this. Yes, he is a legitimate Pope, and yes I will accede to anything he might say if he made an ex-cathedra statement, but no I don't have to agree that everything he says is wise and I certainly don't have to agree with these moronic comments he makes in interviews, which are not an expression of his authority as Pope.

There's only been two ex cathedra statements since that term was defined. The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary. That leaves a lot of room for a lot of different beliefs.

For someone who is so aggressive about promoting Pope Francis and Vatican II to take such a minimalist interpretation of infallibility is frankly shocking to me.

Doom wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 6:43 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 5:09 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 3:45 pm You're not exactly helping your quest to evangelize us with the Gospel of Pope Francis by posting this. Yes, he is a legitimate Pope, and yes I will accede to anything he might say if he made an ex-cathedra statement, but no I don't have to agree that everything he says is wise and I certainly don't have to agree with these moronic comments he makes in interviews, which are not an expression of his authority as Pope.

There's only been two ex cathedra statements since that term was defined. The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary. That leaves a lot of room for a lot of different beliefs.

For someone who is so aggressive about promoting Pope Francis and Vatican II to take such a minimalist interpretation of infallibility is frankly shocking to me.

I was only articulating the logical consequence of your comment that you "will only accede to anything he migh say if he made an ex-cathedra statement".

There have been dozens of ex-cathedra statements since Vatican I. There have been two dogmatic definitions but that is not the same thing as ex cathedra.

Doom wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 6:56 pm There have been dozens of ex-cathedra statements since Vatican I. There have been two dogmatic definitions but that is not the same thing as ex cathedra.

Give me some examples of these 'ex-cathedra' statements and who officially defined them so?

Casti Connubi is one, Humane Vitae is another one. Ordinato Sacredotalis is a third.

You can tell by reading the document, the use of solemn language such as "I declare, define, etc etc etc" is how you can notice it.

The wording of Ordinato Sacredotalis is a case in point "I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful"

If that isn't ex-cathedra, nothing is.

Requesting another statement confirming it is silly, the question then becomes "Was that statement ex cathedra" and so on and so on forever.

Stella wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 6:41 pm

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 6:20 pm It was widely accepted, even at the time, by everyone but the English, that Joan's trial was a miscarriage of justice. It did not follow Church law; it was a politically motivated attack. Pointing to her example doesn't do much good.

Can you give some more examples of the countless number?

Famous ones that come to mind are St Columba, Galileo, St Mary McKillop. Googling I find St Athanasius excommunicated by Pope Liberius. Pope Leo I was excommunicated by Dioscorus, Patriarch of Alexandria and ten bishops.

Which of these were executed?

Also:

• Galileo was not excommunicated.
• St. Athanasius was, but erroneously and that was soon mended.
• Dioscorus et al. had no authority to excommunicate Pope St. Leo I, so it was a meaningless gesture, not something the Church did.
• St. Mary McKillop was excommunicated for disobedience, not for heresy.
• It's not clear from the actual Wikipedia article on St. Columba that he was ever actually excommunicated: "A synod of clerics and scholars threatened to excommunicate him for these deaths, but Brendan of Birr spoke on his behalf. Eventually, the process was deemed a miscarriage of justice." In any case, this too was not a case of heresy.

You're going to have to do a lot better than that.

I had to look this up. Yep. Found it on the National Catholic Register web site. Like almost everything else from this pontiff, I read his comment with a shrug and sigh. I guess the children of Fatima were hallucinating.

On the other hand, maybe he was thinking of Shakespeare who wrote

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here!"

peregrinator wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 7:16 am I've found that most people who "hope" hell is empty are actually universalists

Then there's that gawky song by their spokesman John Lennon who imagines there's no heaven, either.

You think John Lennon somehow speaks for the Pope? Huh? That is such a weird statement.

Another example of Pope Francis loving the sound of his own voice. He has no filter and nobody to release comments to the public.

His ego is huge.

By "their" I meant the Universalists.

Riverboat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 10:43 am By "their" I meant the Universalists.

But how does John Lennon speak for universalists? I literally don't understand the point you are trying to make.

Doom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 4:13 pm But how does John Lennon speak for universalists? I literally don't understand the point you are trying to make.

I guess I should have included some lyrics from his paean to nothingness:

Imagine there's no heaven./It's easy if you try./
No hell below us/Above us, only sky./
Imagine all the people/Living for today.

Imagine there's no countries./It isn't hard to do./
Nothing to kill or die for./And no religion, too./
Imagine all the people/Living life in peace.

You may say I'm a dreamer/But I'm not the only one./
I hope someday you'll join us/And the world will be as one.

There's more, but I think you get the gist of it.

That's not universalist because no one goes to Heaven because there isn't one.

On the other hand, maybe he was thinking of Shakespeare who wrote

"Hell is empty, and all the devils are here!"

With what we see on the news, I'd be inclined to agree with this view. All the demons were released from hell on a temporary furlough.