The Catholic Message Board

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:52 am So struggling isn't itself a sign of failure.

Struggling and failing is a sign of failure. I'm not perfect yet.

And that's where you start. If you feel ashamed at failing, ignore it. All it means is that you need grace even more than you thought.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:08 am

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:52 am So struggling isn't itself a sign of failure.

Struggling and failing is a sign of failure. I'm not perfect yet.

Struggling and falling isn't failure, not when you make the choice to continue to respond to God's call and to get back up and keep fighting.

The real failure is when you decide to quit the struggle.

St. Francis de Sales wrote:We must hate our shortcomings, but with a hate that is tranquil and peaceful, not with a hate that is fretful and troubled; and, yes, we must have the patience to see our shortcomings and to profit from a saintly abasement of ourselves. Failing that, my daughter, your imperfections, which you see very acutely, will trouble you even more keenly, and by this means maintain themselves, as there is nothing which sustains our defects more than a sense of anxiety and haste to eliminate them.

Fr. Jacques Philippe wrote:The first goal of spiritual combat, that toward which our efforts must above all else be directed, is not to always obtain a victory (over our temptations, our weaknesses, etc.), rather it is to learn to maintain peace of heart under all circumstances, even in the case of defeat, [Emphases in original]

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:28 pm

Struggling and falling isn't failure, not when you make the choice to continue to respond to God's call and to get back up and keep fighting.

The real failure is when you decide to quit the struggle.

Struggling and NOT GETTING BETTER is failure.

I hate not making ANY progress.

I feel stuck and unable to get closer to the goal.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 12:39 pm

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Sat Dec 16, 2023 9:28 pm

Struggling and falling isn't failure, not when you make the choice to continue to respond to God's call and to get back up and keep fighting.

The real failure is when you decide to quit the struggle.

Struggling and NOT GETTING BETTER is failure.

How do you know that you're not getting better?

The fact that you're here, now, and that you're still asking the question says to me otherwise. It tells me that God's grace in you is still operative. That's not nothing.

I hate not making ANY progress.

I feel stuck and unable to get closer to the goal.

Look, I completely understand that. I've gone years feeling like I was stuck in the same rut, constantly repeating the same sins in confession where it began to feel pointless and impossible. It's like when someone starts a new weight loss diet, they set a goal weight, and they start the work. Yet for the first two weeks or a month goes by and nothing seems to be happening, then they give up. Sometimes our body needs tome to catch up to the changes we're choosing to make, like with regards to our metabolism. And they quit right on verge of where their metabolism started to adapt so that the progress they were seeking really started to get into gear. I think that there's some truth to the idea that the human soul has a sort of spiritual metabolism. When you've been feeding it junk for so long and thing suddenly turn to try and feed it actually nutritious things, it's going to go into shock and resist. Give yourself time and patience.


Spiritual battles are of their nature eucatastrophic, the darkness is always deepest before the dawn.

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:03 pm How do you know that you're not getting better?

Zero progress in many years tells me that very loudly.

The fact that you're here, now, and that you're still asking the question says to me otherwise. It tells me that God's grace in you is still operative. That's not nothing.

But it may be insufficient for me to go to heaven.

Yet for the first two weeks or a month goes by and nothing seems to be happening, then they give up.

I can't give up, that's automatically going elevator down.

But I'm not making progress, so elevator may be going down for me anyway.

Again, the more you fuss and fret, the harder it is for God to work in you.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:36 am But it may be insufficient for me to go to heaven.

Nothing anyone does is sufficient for them to go to heaven. That's always wholly due to grace. Moreover, nobody knows with certainty that they're predestined for heaven barring a special revelation. So you're not unique in having uncertainty. The question is what you do about it. Mope, navel gaze, feel sorry for yourself, whine...or pray and keep trusting in the Lord. As that great spiritual master Gen. Nathaniel Greene said, "We fight get beat and fight again. We have so much to do and so little to do it with, that I am much afraid these States must fall never to rise again." But despite the fear and the constant losses, his labors were absolutely central to the ultimate defeat of Cornwallis.

ETA: not that I agree with Father.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 2:36 am

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:03 pm How do you know that you're not getting better?

Zero progress in many years tells me that very loudly.

The fact that you're here, now, and that you're still asking the question says to me otherwise. It tells me that God's grace in you is still operative. That's not nothing.

But it may be insufficient for me to go to heaven.

Yet for the first two weeks or a month goes by and nothing seems to be happening, then they give up.

I can't give up, that's automatically going elevator down.

But I'm not making progress, so elevator may be going down for me anyway.

Both Gherkin and Fr. Kenobi are right.

I just went through years of what you're going through now where I would obsess over my own personal unworthiness before God to the point where I was literally engaging in psychological self bullying and self-abuse. What I was doing was falling into the temptation towards a negative form of pride and self-obession that spiraled into hopelessness, depression, and despair that blocked and obscured the grace and the vision of God's love.

God loves all you, brother, including the parts of you that you find weak, detestable, unacceptable, or unlovable.

There was a piece of advice that my priest gave to me that I'm going to dare to pass on to you. The next time you're in prayer, hold up to God all those things about you that you hate, and ask God to show you how to love those things about you that you hate like He loves them. Do it as many times as needed.

God called you and chose you, and it wasn't because you earned it or made yourself worthy of it. The whole adventure of being a disciple is going on the journey of finding out exactly who it is that God already sees you as being. Of realizing that secret name that God promises to all of us that He has kept hidden for each of us since the beginning.

Wrestling with fear and insecurities about ourselves as distractions to following Christ is exactly what the devils want out of us. Don't do that.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:33 am Again, the more you fuss and fret, the harder it is for God to work in you.

I have to fuss and fret, I'm not perfect.

gherkin wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:34 am
Nothing anyone does is sufficient for them to go to heaven. That's always wholly due to grace.

Then how do I know I'm sufficiently cooperating with grace? I hate not knowing the answer to this.

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 12:18 pm
Wrestling with fear and insecurities about ourselves as distractions to following Christ is exactly what the devils want out of us. Don't do that.

I can't go permissive because then elevator down.
I can't go to despair because then elevator down.

The middle? Zero progress.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:03 am

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:33 am Again, the more you fuss and fret, the harder it is for God to work in you.

I have to fuss and fret, I'm not perfect.

No, you don’t. All that fussing and fretting creates emotional energy. How do you get rid of the energy? By sinning.

Let me be blunt here: It is obvious that the way you're trying to achieve your goal of perfection/holiness isn't working. You can:

1) Continue to try it while b i t c h i n g and moaning about the fact that it doesn't work;
2) Try something else.

Above all: STOP FRETTING. Phil 4:6-7 Have no anxiety about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Then: Remove all unnecessary stressors from your life. Everyone's life has stressors, and yours may have more than average. Why seek out more? What are you going to do about the latest strange thing coming from? Are you going to save the Church?

There are people wrong on the Internet? https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

Etc. Step away from anything you can that robs you of peace.

Alright, alright, enough of me in this thread.

Let's get back to the question:

Does God love those in hell? If yes, can we get some Church teaching on this?

Church teaching? I think the head of the Church put it plainly: "But rather, love your enemies and do good to them, and lend expecting nothing back; then your reward will be great and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked" (Luke 6:35). He loves the ungrateful and wicked in hell though it is wasted on them. Viewing this fact, we are each reminded that even our being grateful to Him is by his grace and that "there but for the grace of God go I." Then was His grace not sufficient to save them from hell? No, it was necessary but not sufficient. Was it Augustine that said "He who created you without you will not save you without you"?