Is Francis a legitimate Pope?

[Gandalf the Grey]

One of the most pernicious is the "Pachamama" claim, I have researched this extensively and what I have discovered is that the alleged statue of Pachamama, was, according to the guy sculpted it, supposed to be a statue of Mary, specifically,"Our Lord of the Amazon", who is the patron saint of the Pan-Amazon region,

Please tell me that's a typo.

[Gandalf the Grey]

One of the most pernicious is the "Pachamama" claim, I have researched this extensively and what I have discovered is that the alleged statue of Pachamama, was, according to the guy sculpted it, supposed to be a statue of Mary, specifically, "Our Lord of the Amazon", who is the patron saint of the Pan-Amazon region, and any claim to the contrary is a blatant lie.

It was not "Our Lady of the Amazon" which looks like this:

ourladyoftheamazon.png

Also there isn't (or wasn't) a patron saint of the pan-Amazon region, in Brazil for example they venerate Our Lady of Nazareth and Our Lady of Aparecida.

This reminds me of that time when some Israelites made a golden calf and said "Hail Israel, this is your god who brought you out of the land of Egypt."

AFAIC stated "intentions" are irrelevant. What was produced wasn't a commemoration of Mary, it was a representation of a pagan fertility idol that they called "Mary" and that they bowed down, danced around, and worshipped.

The most charitable thing that can be said about it is that it was a ridiculously clumsy attempt at syncretism.

[Doom]

So what you are saying is that it doesn't really matter what the evidence is, you're gonna stick to your negative assessment because that is what you want to be true. Is that really what Christian charity looks like?

[peregrinator]

So what you are saying is that it doesn't really matter what the evidence is, you're gonna stick to your negative assessment because that is what you want to be true. Is that really what Christian charity looks like?

I mean, I gave evidence, I showed you what "Our Lady of the Amazon" looks like and you're persisting in thinking those weird tourist trinkets are depictions of Our Lady!

You don't have to think the Pope sanctioned idolatry in the Vatican but you don't have to swallow the narrative of the Papal apologists either.

[Stella]

Francis is the least popular Pope in several centuries, and frankly, I am inclined to think that it is almost a good thing, there has been an unhealthy cult of personality around the Pope, especially in the post Vatican II era. So, I am inclined to think we have been sent a historically bad Pope as a form of punishment to remind us that Catholicism is not supposed to be Pope-centric, we need to stop looking to the Pope for everything and start looking at the local level, for the vast majority of Church history the Pope was a minor figure in the daily lives of Catholics, indeed, most Catholics probably could not have even named the Pope. This is more the way it should be than what we've had the last few decades and if we could get back to it, it would be better for everyone.

I have to disagree with the statement that Popes have been minor figures in peoples daily lives in the past. Catholic houses and Churches had pictures of Popes in pride of place. Similar to how English immigrants had pictures of the King in pride of place. They were regarded with the highest esteem and whatever came out of the Vatican was accepted without question by ordinary people. The papacy was regarded as Jesus voice on earth.

Also the disdain for Pope Francis is confined to the US. He isn’t considered a ‘bad’ Pope by the majority of the worlds Catholics. I’d argue that the distain is really where the cult of personality comes into it. When you ask someone why they don’t like the Pope, it’s always a litany of personality traits.

On the other hand, Pope Francis certainly has disdain for the United States -- look at the number of negative comments he has made about us, compared with other nations.

But he really hasn’t. It seems every week the Pope is addressing some sort of issue from around the world. He responded to the last administrations plan to build a border wall and the detention of immigrant children as immoral. But what Catholic Pope wouldn't have done that? But he’s also spoken against the persecution of the Uighurs and Yazidi’s. He has been especially critical of European countries record with asylum seekers both from the continent and coming from the sea. Outlets like Associated Press and Al Jazeera report on these global issues and the Pope where US outlets can be selective about what they report of him.

[Stella]

I have to disagree with the statement that Popes have been minor figures in peoples daily lives in the past. Catholic houses and Churches had pictures of Popes in pride of place.

Only after 1870, which is also the beginning of the modern Papal cult of personality, let's get real, there were no "pictures of the Pope" anywhere before the invention of photography. And there certainly weren't pictures of the Pope back in the days when there could be 3 or 4 Popes in the space of 10 years. If you asked the average Catholic in 1300 to name the Pope, I doubt many could do it. Certainly, there was no great interest in the Pope when it could take 2 or 3 years for a person to even learn that a new Pope had been elected, and by that time the Pope they just heard about being elected could have already died.

Mmmm, I'm not an historian but I find it hard to believe that Catholics in 1300 wouldn't be aware of the Pope as the head of the Papal States during their lifetimes. They were more like Kings at that time. I know that communications would have been slower than they are today but that seemed to heighten regard for Popes rather than diminish their influence.

[Stella]

I have to disagree with the statement that Popes have been minor figures in peoples daily lives in the past. Catholic houses and Churches had pictures of Popes in pride of place. Similar to how English immigrants had pictures of the King in pride of place. They were regarded with the highest esteem and whatever came out of the Vatican was accepted without question by ordinary people. The papacy was regarded as Jesus voice on earth.

Also the disdain for Pope Francis is confined to the US. He isn’t considered a ‘bad’ Pope by the majority of the worlds Catholics. I’d argue that the distain is really where the cult of personality comes into it. When you ask someone why they don’t like the Pope, it’s always a litany of personality traits.

On the other hand, Pope Francis certainly has disdain for the United States -- look at the number of negative comments he has made about us, compared with other nations.

I happen to believe that it's precisely due to the naive ignorance of around the world of Pope Francis and his proclivities that other countries around the world see him only in a superficially positive light.

And that contrarily the reason for the disdain of Francis here in the US is precisely because we've come to know him so well through his acute attention and his abusive antics.

What makes you believe that people outside the US are more ignorant than inside?

[Doom]

So what you are saying is that it doesn't really matter what the evidence is, you're gonna stick to your negative assessment because that is what you want to be true. Is that really what Christian charity looks like?

I mean, I gave evidence, I showed you what "Our Lady of the Amazon" looks like and you're persisting in thinking those weird tourist trinkets are depictions of Our Lady!

You don't have to think the Pope sanctioned idolatry in the Vatican but you don't have to swallow the narrative of the Papal apologists either.

It isn't "the line of the Papal apologists" it is what the sculptor of the statue says was his intent when he made it. Why would he lie? And indeed I'm not certain that the assumption that Catholics in the Amazon region are pagan idolators isn't at least somewhat racist.

The statue is of a pregnant woman which is not how Pachamamma has ever been portrayed, but it is consistent with the portrayal of the Virgin is portrayed in that region. But the idea that there is only one possible way to make a statue of the Virigin is like arguing that unless it is a white skinned, blonde, blue eyed guy who looks like he is from Sweden it can't possibly be a picture of Jesus.

[Gandalf the Grey]

I happen to believe that it's precisely due to the naive ignorance of many around the world of Pope Francis and his proclivities that other countries around the world see him only in a superficially positive light.

And that contrarily the reason for the disdain of Francis here in the US is precisely because we've come to know him so well through his acute attention and his abusive antics.

What makes you believe that people outside the US are more ignorant than inside?

So, another attempt at putting words and meanings into people's mouths that they never said or meant.

But perhaps the mistake is mine, and having been the child of severely abusive parents myself perhaps this is language that you'll better grasp, so I'll put it this way:

Francis is like that abusive parent who wears a mask while he's around those who he wants to make himself look benevolent, yet who takes the mask off when he's behind closed doors. Francis seems to have a peculiar interest in treating the US like his proverbial "red-headed stepchild" because of the higher concentration of traditionalists here in the states. He hates traditionalists and traditionalism, because, as which is typical in most of the unconstrained utopian visions of Leftism which simply assumes that "progress" is nothing but an act of negation-
that means merely dismantling timeless and objective truth- those who stand in the way of that vision are by definition not merely mistaken or wrong, they're "standing in the way of progress" and "defending the status quo," thus in the mind of Francis and those who agree with his ideologically myopic point-of-view, morally evil.

(As if simply complaining about how things are and wandering aimlessly and stumbling stupidly around in the dark just instantly is supposed to mean that you're going somewhere.)

The "ignorance" I'm referring to is regarding those who decide to only see the fake mask vs who gets the "privilege" of seeing the real face behind it.

There are plenty of people in the US who choose to stay willfully ignorant and choose only to see the mask, just as there are sufficient number of people outside the US who see Francis as he really is.

You decide what you want to see. Perhaps if someone else sees something else, instead of just trying to gaslight them out of hand maybe instead you might want to ask yourself what is it that they're seeing which you're not, and why is it that you're not seeing it?

[Gandalf the Grey]

So what you are saying is that it doesn't really matter what the evidence is, you're gonna stick to your negative assessment because that is what you want to be true. Is that really what Christian charity looks like?

I mean, I gave evidence, I showed you what "Our Lady of the Amazon" looks like and you're persisting in thinking those weird tourist trinkets are depictions of Our Lady!

You don't have to think the Pope sanctioned idolatry in the Vatican but you don't have to swallow the narrative of the Papal apologists either.

It isn't "the line of the Papal apologists" it is what the sculptor of the statue says was his intent when he made it. Why would he lie? And indeed I'm not certain that the assumption that Catholics in the Amazon region are pagan idolators isn't at least somewhat racist.

The statue is of a pregnant woman which is not how Pachamamma has ever been portrayed, but it is consistent with the portrayal of the Virgin is portrayed in that region. But the idea that there is only one possible way to make a statue of the Virigin is like arguing that unless it is a white skinned, blonde, blue eyed guy who looks like he is from Sweden it can't possibly be a picture of Jesus.

Sorry, but I've found the exact opposite.

https://visualizingbirth.org/pachamama ... her-earth

It's specifically an Andean fertility goddess. Like most fertility goddesses in pagan cults it's depicted as pregnant and about to give birth.

As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.

[Stella]

I happen to believe that it's precisely due to the naive ignorance of many around the world of Pope Francis and his proclivities that other countries around the world see him only in a superficially positive light.

And that contrarily the reason for the disdain of Francis here in the US is precisely because we've come to know him so well through his acute attention and his abusive antics.

What makes you believe that people outside the US are more ignorant than inside?

So, another attempt at putting words and meanings into people's mouths that they never said or meant.

But perhaps the mistake is mine, and having been the child of severely abusive parents myself perhaps this is language that you'll better grasp, so I'll put it this way:

Francis is like that abusive parent who wears a mask while he's around those who he wants to make himself look benevolent, yet who takes the mask off when he's behind closed doors. Francis seems to have a peculiar interest in treating the US like his proverbial "red-headed stepchild" because of the higher concentration of traditionalists here in the states. He hates traditionalists and traditionalism, because, as which is typical in most of the unconstrained utopian visions of Leftism which simply assumes that "progress" is nothing but an act of negation-
that means merely dismantling timeless and objective truth- those who stand in the way of that vision are by definition not merely mistaken or wrong, they're "standing in the way of progress" and "defending the status quo," thus in the mind of Francis and those who agree with his ideologically myopic point-of-view, morally evil.

(As if simply complaining about how things are and wandering aimlessly and stumbling stupidly around in the dark just instantly is supposed to mean that you're going somewhere.)

The "ignorance" I'm referring to is regarding those who decide to only see the fake mask vs who gets the "privilege" of seeing the real face behind it.

There are plenty of people in the US who choose to stay willfully ignorant and choose only to see the mask, just as there are sufficient number of people outside the US who see Francis as he really is.

You decide what you want to see. Perhaps if someone else sees something else, instead of just trying to gaslight them out of hand maybe instead you might want to ask yourself what is it that they're seeing which you're not, and why is it that you're not seeing it?

I asked you a question and you coined it as 'gaslighting'? Everything the US sees in media, the whole world sees. It's not as though Pope Francis is having private communications just with the US population that the rest of the world doesn't see.

[peregrinator]

It isn't "the line of the Papal apologists" it is what the sculptor of the statue says was his intent when he made it. Why would he lie?

Where can one find this testimony?

And indeed I'm not certain that the assumption that Catholics in the Amazon region are pagan idolators isn't at least somewhat racist.

I never made that assumption.

The statue is of a pregnant woman which is not how Pachamamma has ever been portrayed, but it is consistent with the portrayal of the Virgin is portrayed in that region.

No it isn't - you can see depictions of Our Lady of Nazareth and Our Lady of Aparecida for yourself and see that they bear not the slightest resemblance, even though they are wildly different from one another.

[Gandalf the Grey]

I asked you a question and you coined it as 'gaslighting'?

Misrepresenting what's written to you in a post seems to be a thing with you.

Everything the US sees in media, the whole world sees. It's not as though Pope Francis is having private communications just with the US population that the rest of the world doesn't see.

Right...and because the sort of abuse that is leveled by Francis at traditionalists is your kind of abuse, meaning it's the kind of abuse that you favor and which you get to indulge in because Francis is using the same authoritarian and draconian manner you presume previous prelates in the Church used against you, then it's not Francis' fault and therefore your intentionally want to pretend that his abusive antics just don't exist.

It's not Francis who's behaving uncharitably, horribly, unmercifully, intolerantly, divisively, etc....its those "others," those "rad trads," those "Pharisees" who are to blame.

Keep telling yourself that story while you remain absurdly oblivious and wonder why more and more people are being Red-pilled because of Francis' constant petty and vindictive sniping and demoralizing heavy-handed antics.

[Stella]

It isn't "the line of the Papal apologists" it is what the sculptor of the statue says was his intent when he made it. Why would he lie?

Where can one find this testimony?

And indeed I'm not certain that the assumption that Catholics in the Amazon region are pagan idolators isn't at least somewhat racist.

I never made that assumption.

The statue is of a pregnant woman which is not how Pachamamma has ever been portrayed, but it is consistent with the portrayal of the Virgin is portrayed in that region.

No it isn't - you can see depictions of Our Lady of Nazareth and Our Lady of Aparecida for yourself and see that they bear not the slightest resemblance, even though they are wildly different from one another.

Trent Horn from Catholic Answers discusses it in a podcast around the time. He says the woman explaining statue to Pope Francis calls the statue Nuestra Señora De La Amazonia which translates to “Our Lady of the Amazon” in English.

https://www.catholic.com/audio/cot/pach ... nian-synod

A Spanish language site explains the phrase https://spanishtogo.app/nuestra-senora-de-la-amazonia/...

The term “Nuestra Señora De La Amazonia” translates to “Our Lady of the Amazon” in English. It refers to the veneration of the Virgin Mary in the context of the Amazon region, particularly within the Catholic faith. A title often associated with Mary, various countries and regions have their own versions depicting her connection to their specific geographical locations.

[Stella]

I asked you a question and you coined it as 'gaslighting'?

Misrepresenting what's written to you in a post seems to be a thing with you.

Everything the US sees in media, the whole world sees. It's not as though Pope Francis is having private communications just with the US population that the rest of the world doesn't see.

Right...and because the sort of abuse that is leveled by Francis at traditionalists is your kind of abuse, meaning it's the kind of abuse that you favor and which you get to indulge in because Francis is using the same authoritarian and draconian manner you presume previous prelates in the Church used against you, then it's not Francis' fault and therefore your intentionally want to pretend that his abusive antics just don't exist.

It's not Francis who's behaving uncharitably, horribly, unmercifully, intolerantly, divisively, etc....its those "others," those "rad trads," those "Pharisees" who are to blame.

Keep telling yourself that story while you remain absurdly oblivious and wonder why more and more people are being Red-pilled because of Francis' constant petty and vindictive sniping and demoralizing heavy-handed antics.

So I'll no longer be responding to your posts.

[peregrinator]

Trent Horn from Catholic Answers discusses it in a podcast around the time. He says the woman explaining statue to Pope Francis calls the statue Nuestra Señora De La Amazonia which translates to “Our Lady of the Amazon” in English.

Yes, I know what the young lady said. Where can I find a traditional depiction of "Our Lady of the Amazon" that remotely resembles it?

[Gandalf the Grey]

I asked you a question and you coined it as 'gaslighting'?

Misrepresenting what's written to you in a post seems to be a thing with you.

Everything the US sees in media, the whole world sees. It's not as though Pope Francis is having private communications just with the US population that the rest of the world doesn't see.

Right...and because the sort of abuse that is leveled by Francis at traditionalists is your kind of abuse, meaning it's the kind of abuse that you favor and which you get to indulge in because Francis is using the same authoritarian and draconian manner you presume previous prelates in the Church used against you, then it's not Francis' fault and therefore you intentionally want to pretend that his abusive antics just don't exist.

It's not Francis who's behaving uncharitably, horribly, unmercifully, intolerantly, divisively, etc....its those "others," those "rad trads," those "Pharisees" who are to blame.

Keep telling yourself that story while you remain absurdly oblivious and wonder why more and more people are being Red-pilled because of Francis' constant petty and vindictive sniping and demoralizing heavy-handed antics.

So I'll no longer be responding to your posts.

My apologies that you took offense to me holding up a mirror and showing you your own reflection.

[Stella]

Trent Horn from Catholic Answers discusses it in a podcast around the time. He says the woman explaining statue to Pope Francis calls the statue Nuestra Señora De La Amazonia which translates to “Our Lady of the Amazon” in English.

Yes, I know what the young lady said. Where can I find a traditional depiction of "Our Lady of the Amazon" that remotely resembles it?

The image wasn’t meant to be an official representation but rather a local interpretation of a Holy Mother manifested by the fruitfulness of the earth. This is not unusual in evangelizing indigenous cultures in history. In his post synodal exhortation, Querida Amazonia, Pope Francis says as much. This is why we need to read what comes out of the Vatican rather than the Catholic media shock jocks who aren’t in tune or accepting in any way with the primal values of indigenous people which are in fact very relevant to knowing the Creator.

78. A process of inculturation involving not only individuals but also peoples demands a respectful and understanding love for those peoples. This process has already begun in much of the Amazon region. More than forty years ago, the bishops of the Peruvian Amazon pointed out that in many of the groups present in that region, those to be evangelized, shaped by a varied and changing culture, have been “initially evangelized”. As a result, they possess “certain features of popular Catholicism that, perhaps originally introduced by pastoral workers, are now something that the people have made their own, even changing their meaning and handing them down from generation to generation”.110

Let us not be quick to describe as superstition or paganism certain religious practices that arise spontaneously from the life of peoples. Rather, we ought to know how to distinguish the wheat growing alongside the tares, for “popular piety can enable us to see how the faith, once received, becomes embodied in a culture and is constantly passed on”.111

79. It is possible to take up an indigenous symbol in some way, without necessarily considering it as idolatry. A myth charged with spiritual meaning can be used to advantage and not always considered a pagan error. Some religious festivals have a sacred meaning and are occasions for gathering and fraternity, albeit in need of a gradual process of purification or maturation. A missionary of souls will try to discover the legitimate needs and concerns that seek an outlet in at times imperfect, partial or mistaken religious expressions, and will attempt to respond to them with an inculturated spirituality.

80. Such a spirituality will certainly be centred on the one God and Lord, while at the same time in contact with the daily needs of people who strive for a dignified life, who want to enjoy life’s blessings, to find peace and harmony, to resolve family problems, to care for their illnesses, and to see their children grow up happy. The greatest danger would be to prevent them from encountering Christ by presenting him as an enemy of joy or as someone indifferent to human questions and difficulties.112 Nowadays, it is essential to show that holiness takes nothing away from our “energy, vitality or joy”.1


https://www.vatican.va/content/francesc ... zonia.html

[Gandalf the Grey]

Then this must be a local indigenous Scandinavian interpretation and representation of Jesus.

[peregrinator]

The image wasn’t meant to be an official representation but rather a local interpretation of a Holy Mother manifested by the fruitfulness of the earth.

"a Holy Mother"? I don't know what that means. If it's supposed to be Our Lady, then there must be a tradition of depicting her in this way in Amazonian culture. But I suspect these statues aren't that at all.