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Doom wrote: One of the most pernicious is the "Pachamama" claim, I have researched this extensively and what I have discovered is that the alleged statue of Pachamama, was, according to the guy sculpted it, supposed to be a statue of Mary, specifically,"Our Lord of the Amazon", who is the patron saint of the Pan-Amazon region,

peregrinator wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:01 am

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:01 pm One of the most pernicious is the "Pachamama" claim, I have researched this extensively and what I have discovered is that the alleged statue of Pachamama, was, according to the guy sculpted it, supposed to be a statue of Mary, specifically, "Our Lord of the Amazon", who is the patron saint of the Pan-Amazon region, and any claim to the contrary is a blatant lie.

It was not "Our Lady of the Amazon" which looks like this:

ourladyoftheamazon.png

Also there isn't (or wasn't) a patron saint of the pan-Amazon region, in Brazil for example they venerate Our Lady of Nazareth and Our Lady of Aparecida.

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:13 am So what you are saying is that it doesn't really matter what the evidence is, you're gonna stick to your negative assessment because that is what you want to be true. Is that really what Christian charity looks like?

Vern Humphrey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:14 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 5:07 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 3:27 pm Francis is the least popular Pope in several centuries, and frankly, I am inclined to think that it is almost a good thing, there has been an unhealthy cult of personality around the Pope, especially in the post Vatican II era. So, I am inclined to think we have been sent a historically bad Pope as a form of punishment to remind us that Catholicism is not supposed to be Pope-centric, we need to stop looking to the Pope for everything and start looking at the local level, for the vast majority of Church history the Pope was a minor figure in the daily lives of Catholics, indeed, most Catholics probably could not have even named the Pope. This is more the way it should be than what we've had the last few decades and if we could get back to it, it would be better for everyone.

I have to disagree with the statement that Popes have been minor figures in peoples daily lives in the past. Catholic houses and Churches had pictures of Popes in pride of place. Similar to how English immigrants had pictures of the King in pride of place. They were regarded with the highest esteem and whatever came out of the Vatican was accepted without question by ordinary people. The papacy was regarded as Jesus voice on earth.

Also the disdain for Pope Francis is confined to the US. He isn’t considered a ‘bad’ Pope by the majority of the worlds Catholics. I’d argue that the distain is really where the cult of personality comes into it. When you ask someone why they don’t like the Pope, it’s always a litany of personality traits.

On the other hand, Pope Francis certainly has disdain for the United States -- look at the number of negative comments he has made about us, compared with other nations.

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:45 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 5:07 pm

I have to disagree with the statement that Popes have been minor figures in peoples daily lives in the past. Catholic houses and Churches had pictures of Popes in pride of place.

Only after 1870, which is also the beginning of the modern Papal cult of personality, let's get real, there were no "pictures of the Pope" anywhere before the invention of photography. And there certainly weren't pictures of the Pope back in the days when there could be 3 or 4 Popes in the space of 10 years. If you asked the average Catholic in 1300 to name the Pope, I doubt many could do it. Certainly, there was no great interest in the Pope when it could take 2 or 3 years for a person to even learn that a new Pope had been elected, and by that time the Pope they just heard about being elected could have already died.

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:53 am

Vern Humphrey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:14 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 5:07 pm

I have to disagree with the statement that Popes have been minor figures in peoples daily lives in the past. Catholic houses and Churches had pictures of Popes in pride of place. Similar to how English immigrants had pictures of the King in pride of place. They were regarded with the highest esteem and whatever came out of the Vatican was accepted without question by ordinary people. The papacy was regarded as Jesus voice on earth.

Also the disdain for Pope Francis is confined to the US. He isn’t considered a ‘bad’ Pope by the majority of the worlds Catholics. I’d argue that the distain is really where the cult of personality comes into it. When you ask someone why they don’t like the Pope, it’s always a litany of personality traits.

On the other hand, Pope Francis certainly has disdain for the United States -- look at the number of negative comments he has made about us, compared with other nations.

I happen to believe that it's precisely due to the naive ignorance of around the world of Pope Francis and his proclivities that other countries around the world see him only in a superficially positive light.

And that contrarily the reason for the disdain of Francis here in the US is precisely because we've come to know him so well through his acute attention and his abusive antics.

peregrinator wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:56 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:13 am So what you are saying is that it doesn't really matter what the evidence is, you're gonna stick to your negative assessment because that is what you want to be true. Is that really what Christian charity looks like?

I mean, I gave evidence, I showed you what "Our Lady of the Amazon" looks like and you're persisting in thinking those weird tourist trinkets are depictions of Our Lady!

You don't have to think the Pope sanctioned idolatry in the Vatican but you don't have to swallow the narrative of the Papal apologists either.

Stella wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:35 pm

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:53 am
I happen to believe that it's precisely due to the naive ignorance of many around the world of Pope Francis and his proclivities that other countries around the world see him only in a superficially positive light.

And that contrarily the reason for the disdain of Francis here in the US is precisely because we've come to know him so well through his acute attention and his abusive antics.

What makes you believe that people outside the US are more ignorant than inside?

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:38 pm

peregrinator wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:56 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:13 am So what you are saying is that it doesn't really matter what the evidence is, you're gonna stick to your negative assessment because that is what you want to be true. Is that really what Christian charity looks like?

I mean, I gave evidence, I showed you what "Our Lady of the Amazon" looks like and you're persisting in thinking those weird tourist trinkets are depictions of Our Lady!

You don't have to think the Pope sanctioned idolatry in the Vatican but you don't have to swallow the narrative of the Papal apologists either.

It isn't "the line of the Papal apologists" it is what the sculptor of the statue says was his intent when he made it. Why would he lie? And indeed I'm not certain that the assumption that Catholics in the Amazon region are pagan idolators isn't at least somewhat racist.

The statue is of a pregnant woman which is not how Pachamamma has ever been portrayed, but it is consistent with the portrayal of the Virgin is portrayed in that region. But the idea that there is only one possible way to make a statue of the Virigin is like arguing that unless it is a white skinned, blonde, blue eyed guy who looks like he is from Sweden it can't possibly be a picture of Jesus.

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:01 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 3:35 pm

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:53 am
I happen to believe that it's precisely due to the naive ignorance of many around the world of Pope Francis and his proclivities that other countries around the world see him only in a superficially positive light.

And that contrarily the reason for the disdain of Francis here in the US is precisely because we've come to know him so well through his acute attention and his abusive antics.

What makes you believe that people outside the US are more ignorant than inside?

So, another attempt at putting words and meanings into people's mouths that they never said or meant.

But perhaps the mistake is mine, and having been the child of severely abusive parents myself perhaps this is language that you'll better grasp, so I'll put it this way:

Francis is like that abusive parent who wears a mask while he's around those who he wants to make himself look benevolent, yet who takes the mask off when he's behind closed doors. Francis seems to have a peculiar interest in treating the US like his proverbial "red-headed stepchild" because of the higher concentration of traditionalists here in the states. He hates traditionalists and traditionalism, because, as which is typical in most of the unconstrained utopian visions of Leftism which simply assumes that "progress" is nothing but an act of negation-
that means merely dismantling timeless and objective truth- those who stand in the way of that vision are by definition not merely mistaken or wrong, they're "standing in the way of progress" and "defending the status quo," thus in the mind of Francis and those who agree with his ideologically myopic point-of-view, morally evil.

(As if simply complaining about how things are and wandering aimlessly and stumbling stupidly around in the dark just instantly is supposed to mean that you're going somewhere.)

The "ignorance" I'm referring to is regarding those who decide to only see the fake mask vs who gets the "privilege" of seeing the real face behind it.

There are plenty of people in the US who choose to stay willfully ignorant and choose only to see the mask, just as there are sufficient number of people outside the US who see Francis as he really is.

You decide what you want to see. Perhaps if someone else sees something else, instead of just trying to gaslight them out of hand maybe instead you might want to ask yourself what is it that they're seeing which you're not, and why is it that you're not seeing it?

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:38 pm It isn't "the line of the Papal apologists" it is what the sculptor of the statue says was his intent when he made it. Why would he lie?

And indeed I'm not certain that the assumption that Catholics in the Amazon region are pagan idolators isn't at least somewhat racist.

The statue is of a pregnant woman which is not how Pachamamma has ever been portrayed, but it is consistent with the portrayal of the Virgin is portrayed in that region.

Stella wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:57 pm I asked you a question and you coined it as 'gaslighting'?

Everything the US sees in media, the whole world sees. It's not as though Pope Francis is having private communications just with the US population that the rest of the world doesn't see.

peregrinator wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 8:34 am

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:38 pm It isn't "the line of the Papal apologists" it is what the sculptor of the statue says was his intent when he made it. Why would he lie?

Where can one find this testimony?

And indeed I'm not certain that the assumption that Catholics in the Amazon region are pagan idolators isn't at least somewhat racist.

I never made that assumption.

The statue is of a pregnant woman which is not how Pachamamma has ever been portrayed, but it is consistent with the portrayal of the Virgin is portrayed in that region.

No it isn't - you can see depictions of Our Lady of Nazareth and Our Lady of Aparecida for yourself and see that they bear not the slightest resemblance, even though they are wildly different from one another.

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:36 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:57 pm I asked you a question and you coined it as 'gaslighting'?

Misrepresenting what's written to you in a post seems to be a thing with you.

Everything the US sees in media, the whole world sees. It's not as though Pope Francis is having private communications just with the US population that the rest of the world doesn't see.

Right...and because the sort of abuse that is leveled by Francis at traditionalists is your kind of abuse, meaning it's the kind of abuse that you favor and which you get to indulge in because Francis is using the same authoritarian and draconian manner you presume previous prelates in the Church used against you, then it's not Francis' fault and therefore your intentionally want to pretend that his abusive antics just don't exist.

It's not Francis who's behaving uncharitably, horribly, unmercifully, intolerantly, divisively, etc....its those "others," those "rad trads," those "Pharisees" who are to blame.

Keep telling yourself that story while you remain absurdly oblivious and wonder why more and more people are being Red-pilled because of Francis' constant petty and vindictive sniping and demoralizing heavy-handed antics.

Stella wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:41 pm Trent Horn from Catholic Answers discusses it in a podcast around the time. He says the woman explaining statue to Pope Francis calls the statue Nuestra Señora De La Amazonia which translates to “Our Lady of the Amazon” in English.

Stella wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:44 pm

Gandalf the Grey wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:36 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:57 pm I asked you a question and you coined it as 'gaslighting'?

Misrepresenting what's written to you in a post seems to be a thing with you.

Everything the US sees in media, the whole world sees. It's not as though Pope Francis is having private communications just with the US population that the rest of the world doesn't see.

Right...and because the sort of abuse that is leveled by Francis at traditionalists is your kind of abuse, meaning it's the kind of abuse that you favor and which you get to indulge in because Francis is using the same authoritarian and draconian manner you presume previous prelates in the Church used against you, then it's not Francis' fault and therefore you intentionally want to pretend that his abusive antics just don't exist.

It's not Francis who's behaving uncharitably, horribly, unmercifully, intolerantly, divisively, etc....its those "others," those "rad trads," those "Pharisees" who are to blame.

Keep telling yourself that story while you remain absurdly oblivious and wonder why more and more people are being Red-pilled because of Francis' constant petty and vindictive sniping and demoralizing heavy-handed antics.

So I'll no longer be responding to your posts.

peregrinator wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:11 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:41 pm Trent Horn from Catholic Answers discusses it in a podcast around the time. He says the woman explaining statue to Pope Francis calls the statue Nuestra Señora De La Amazonia which translates to “Our Lady of the Amazon” in English.

Yes, I know what the young lady said. Where can I find a traditional depiction of "Our Lady of the Amazon" that remotely resembles it?

Stella wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:57 pm The image wasn’t meant to be an official representation but rather a local interpretation of a Holy Mother manifested by the fruitfulness of the earth.