Mary: Immaculately conceived or The Immaculate Conception?

[VeryTas]

The words to Mary from the Holy Spirit out of the mouth of Elizabeth during the Visitation (Luke 1:42) are "Blessed art thou among women" in the Douay-Rheims translation. Many recent English translations render this as a comparative, such as "Most blessed are you among women". But in the original language it is not comparative; it is straightforwardly indicating that among women Mary is the blessed one. Does that make the rest of women "cursed"? Well, it leaves them under an ancient curse (Genesis 3:16), which men have their own version of (Gen. 3:17-19). (I know, nowadays we seem to treat all "curses" as superstitions.)

It is similar to Mary's identifying herself to St. Bernadette as "I am the Immaculate Conception" rather than "I was immaculately conceived", which would have left it open for others besides Mary (and Jesus) to possibly be so conceived. But Bernadette heard what she heard.

[Doom]

It is important to understand that Hebrew does not have superlatives, "good, better, best," etc, so when they wanted to say that someone was the best, or the greatest, or whatnot, they would say "blank is blank among the blanks". For example, they couldn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback", they would have to say "Tom Brady is great among the quarterbacks."

So "Blessed are you among women" means "Of all the women who have ever lived or ever will live, you are the one who is the most blessed."

But that doesn't imply the Immaculate Conception; if anything implies the Immaculate Conception, it is the Angel's greeting "Hail, Full of Grace", "hail" in ancient usage, just like today, implies deference to someone who is in a state of superiority over oneself, and it implies royalty: "Hail, Caesar". So the first part of the greeting implies that Mary is greater than the archangels, and she is royalty, hence she is the Queen of Heaven. The second part is "Full of Grace.", often watered down as "Favored One" in Protestant translations, which means literally "One who is filled with grace to the maximal degree, from the beginning of your life until its end."The question is, "When is the beginning of life?" This question is the one which led to a controversy over the Immaculate Conception. St Thomas followed Aristotle in holding that life didn't begin until 40 days after conception, so he did not hold to the Immaculate Conception, but held that 40 days after her conception, she was purified of all sin in the womb of Saint Anne. Some of the Eastern Fathers appear to have held that her state of sinlessness began later. including possibly as late as the Annunciation. That Mary sinless "a spotless virgin", was clear as early as the second century, but the question was "When and how"

[VeryTas]

It is important to understand that Hebrew does not have superlatives, "good, better, best," etc, so when they wanted to say that someone was the best, or the greatest, or whatnot, they would say "blank is blank among the blanks". For example, they couldn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback", they would have to say "Tom Brady is great among the quarterbacks.

But if Luke was inspired to express this superlative in Greek, wouldn't he have done so with a Greek superlative form, in order to translate any Hebrew or Aramaic accurately? But he didn't. As I understand it, the New Testament is inspired in its own "original" language, not another language that it might have drawn from.

[Doom]

It is important to understand that Hebrew does not have superlatives, "good, better, best," etc, so when they wanted to say that someone was the best, or the greatest, or whatnot, they would say "blank is blank among the blanks". For example, they couldn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback", they would have to say "Tom Brady is great among the quarterbacks.

But if Luke was inspired to express this superlative in Greek, wouldn't he have done so with a Greek superlative form, in order to translate any Hebrew or Aramaic accurately? But he didn't. As I understand it, the New Testament is inspired in its own "original" language, not another language that it might have drawn from.

Why would he intentionally alter a quote? Wouldn't that be dishonest?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

It is important to understand that Hebrew does not have superlatives, "good, better, best," etc, so when they wanted to say that someone was the best, or the greatest, or whatnot, they would say "blank is blank among the blanks". For example, they couldn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback", they would have to say "Tom Brady is great among the quarterbacks.

But if Luke was inspired to express this superlative in Greek, wouldn't he have done so with a Greek superlative form, in order to translate any Hebrew or Aramaic accurately? But he didn't. As I understand it, the New Testament is inspired in its own "original" language, not another language that it might have drawn from.

Have you read the Book of Revelation lately? It is riddled with Hebrewisms.

[Doom]

Biblical scholars regard Hebraisms as a sign of authenticity; they show that

1. The tradition being preserved is very old
2. That the author was so concerned about preserving "the exact words" that he was unafraid of using somewhat awkward Greek if necessary

[VeryTas]

Well, to me it seems like a stretch -- that in writing a gospel for Greeks, the writer Luke, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in order to convey what the same Holy Spirit (through Elizabeth) meant, would retain phraseology from Hebrew that Greeks likely would not grasp.
Or is it these Bible scholars that can't grasp the possibility that the Holy Spirit could be absolutely distinguishing Mary from all other women, not just in degree?