Catholic Church in Germany

[Student]

I'm often somewhat ignorant of details of the Church elsewhere, even though I try to stay at least casually informed. This article made me wonder about the Catholic Church in Germany. It's a 5-10 minute read so only bother is you are bored. Curious people's thoughts, both about the accuracy of the assessment and what direction things might take.

https://europeanconservative.com/articl ... e-to-this/

[Doom]

The Catholic Church in Germany is the richest in the world; it is like Scrooge McDuck rolling through his money bin. This is because the German government collects a mandatory tithe from every registered Catholic in the country through the income tax system. And, no one in Germany is allowed to receive any sacraments unless they can prove they paid the Church tax. So, is the Catholic Church in Germany practicing simony, making people pay for the sacraments? In a word, yes.

And because the Church in Germany is rolling in money like Scrooge McDuck leaping through his money bin, the only thing the vast majority of the bishops care about is making sure the gravy train never ends, and they are willing to compromise every principle of the faith to keep the money rolling in.

I have little doubt that if they thought it would work, they would discard every belief, including the existence of God, just to keep the money rolling in. They care about little else.

This is what you need to understand if you want to understand what is happening in Germany.

[Highlander]

...no one in Germany is allowed to receive any sacraments unless they can prove they paid the Church tax.

I admit to being an ignoramus on the subject of German Catholicism, but I don't believe this. Absent the Church itself, the bureaucratic apparatus required to enforce such a practice would be impossibly overwhelming.

[Doom]

...no one in Germany is allowed to receive any sacraments unless they can prove they paid the Church tax.

I admit to being an ignoramus on the subject of German Catholicism, but I don't believe this. Absent the Church itself, the bureaucratic apparatus required to enforce such a practice would be impossibly overwhelming.

Not as difficult as you think. It is essentially the same practice as the "Temple Recommend" in Mormonism, which is based on many completely trivial factors, including paying your tithe.

[p.falk]

The Catholic Church in Germany is the richest in the world; it is like Scrooge McDuck rolling through his money bin. This is because the German government collects a mandatory tithe from every registered Catholic in the country through the income tax system. And, no one in Germany is allowed to receive any sacraments unless they can prove they paid the Church tax. So, is the Catholic Church in Germany practicing simony, making people pay for the sacraments? In a word, yes.

And because the Church in Germany is rolling in money like Scrooge McDuck leaping through his money bin, the only thing the vast majority of the bishops care about is making sure the gravy train never ends, and they are willing to compromise every principle of the faith to keep the money rolling in.

I have little doubt that if they thought it would work, they would discard every belief, including the existence of God, just to keep the money rolling in. They care about little else.

This is what you need to understand if you want to understand what is happening in Germany.

A priest who used to be the associate pastor at my church told a few of us about this.

We asked him, how is this not a scandal in the church? To which he replied, "it is a scandal... but one quelled by money". What a shame.

[Doom]

A priest who used to be the associate pastor at my church told a few of us about this.

We asked him, how is this not a scandal in the church? To which he replied, "it is a scandal... but one quelled by money". What a shame.

You want an example of the lengths the Church in Germany is willing to go for the money? German law requires that before a woman can get an abortion, she needs to undergo "counseling". Before John Paul II put a stop to it, it used to be possible to go to a priest for counseling, who would then usually just rubber-stamp the abortion by signing the card indicating that counseling had taken place, authorizing the abortion. Yes, priests in Germany used to give permission for abortions.

[Student]

hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't have asked. That's sad.

[VeryTas]

You want an example of the lengths the Church in Germany is willing to go for the money? German law requires that before a woman can get an abortion, she needs to undergo "counseling". Before John Paul II put a stop to it, it used to be possible to go to a priest for counseling, who would then usually just rubber-stamp the abortion by signing the card indicating that counseling had taken place, authorizing the abortion. Yes, priests in Germany used to give permission for abortions.

Not sure how this example brings money into the picture. Would an undeclared Catholic woman wanting an abortion go to the extent of registering as a Catholic just to get the "counselling"?

[peregrinator]

A priest who used to be the associate pastor at my church told a few of us about this.

We asked him, how is this not a scandal in the church? To which he replied, "it is a scandal... but one quelled by money". What a shame.

You want an example of the lengths the Church in Germany is willing to go for the money? German law requires that before a woman can get an abortion, she needs to undergo "counseling". Before John Paul II put a stop to it, it used to be possible to go to a priest for counseling, who would then usually just rubber-stamp the abortion by signing the card indicating that counseling had taken place, authorizing the abortion. Yes, priests in Germany used to give permission for abortions.

My understanding is that John Paul II didn't "put a stop" to the practice but he required the German Church to put language on the card indicating that it wasn't to be used for an abortion ... which I suppose rendered what what been formal cooperation, merely mediate material cooperation.

[Doom]

Not sure how this example brings money into the picture. Would an undeclared Catholic woman wanting an abortion go to the extent of registering as a Catholic just to get the "counselling"?

One didn't have to be Catholic to go to a priest for abortion counseling, and one doesn't need to be Catholic to go to a priest for any counseling of any kind. Catholic Charities offers counseling, and most of the people who get help from Catholic Charities are non-Catholic. But the reason the Catholic Church in Germany signed up to be "counselors" was the government money that funded the program.

[Highlander]

Assuming that the bulk of this is correct and factual, which I still doubt, the Church should be cautious lest some zealot of a priest nail a number of theses onto a church door, say, in Wittenberg.

[Doom]

Assuming that the bulk of this is correct and factual, which I still doubt, the Church should be cautious lest some zealot of a priest nail a number of theses onto a church door, say, in Wittenberg.

It is not as if the situation is any different in any of the Protestant churches in Germany; the "Church tax" is collected by the government and goes to whichever church one may be registered in. Now, you might be asking, "What right does the government have to know what church you are registered in?" And here is where it is important to understand that Europeans, in general, are a lot more tolerant of government intrusion and authoritarianism than Americans.

We have a history of rebelling against a government that became too intrusive; this tradition stems from our origin as a people who fled from other countries because they were seeking freedom that didn't exist elsewhere. In the immortal words of Edmund Burke, who was arguing in favor of granting independence to the American colonies in parliament, we are "ungovernable" because we are "dissenters from the dissenters". This American tradition of suspicion of government and of opposing government intrusion does not exist in Europe, and certainly doesn't exist in Germany. The Germans have always been more tolerant of being pushed around; this is why the Weimar Republic, which was seen as weak, failed. Nothing like the Bill of Rights exists in Germany (or in most of Europe, actually), where there is no freedom of speech, and government censorship of things like "hate speech" is seen as a necessity to protect public order.

By the way, the anecdote of Martin Luther nailing the 95 Theses to the cathedral door is widely believed to be mythical. Luther himself never mentioned it, and given that he was a master self-promoter, if he had done it, he would have bragged about it endlessly. We first hear about it from Melanchthon more than a decade after Luther died, and Melanchthon's source is unknown; he might have just made it up.

[Highlander]

I accept your depiction of Germany, its culture vis-a-vis government intrusion, and even its tithing by tax mechanism. I still doubt its impact and effect. BTW, initially as I recall without rereading, only the Catholics were subject to the governmental religion funding. As now presented, the whole gang is included. What happens with the Muslims, the various tiny religions folks, the atheists, agnostics, LDS, and Shintoists and Hindus? The members of the Foursquare Emmanuel Third Street Revelation Semi-Baptist Trust in the Lord Foundation Church? Even the French?

Your initial assertion, as I recall, was that the Catholic hierarchy in Germany was subservient, in some ways, to the secular government because ... money. Does that assertion apply to all religious bodies ... the long and the short and the tall, bless them all?