Magnanimity as a vice - MacIntyre

[Jack3]

I want to argue that just as the traditional medical virtues had a special
status, so those virtues have become problematic in a special way. There
is a social process by which what have been virtues in one social and
cultural context can become vices in another. I am not here referring to
the process which I have already noted whereby what are believed to be
virtues in one social order come to be believed to be vices in another, as
the quality which Aristotle counted as a virtue under the name of mag-
nanimity came to be considered by the early Christians the vice that is
the counterpart to their virtue of humility. I am referring to a process
whereby what actually were virtues tum into what actually are vices.
Before I tum to the history of the traditional medical virtues, let me list
a number of ways in which this may happen.

MacIntyre
https://macintyrestudies.wordpress.com/ ... -vices.pdf

Is it true? What do we make of it?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

I think it was Chesterton who said something about virtues becoming dangerous when uncoupled from supporting virtues.

[Jack3]

Is the point factually correct, ie would the Church call (sinful) pride what Aristotle calls virtue?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

I am not acquainted with Aristotle's discussion of magnanimity, so I don't know.

Here's what St. Thomas said about (and in favor of) it: https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3129.htm

[Highlander]

If I can, as the elevated ongoing conversation is well beyond me, offer a mundane example of questionable virtue.

Some years ago, a driver ahead of me and in the right of way, stopped in the lane to allow another vehicle, not in the right of way with the female driver seemingly somewhat confused, to proceed. Her reaction was slow, very slow ... very slow. The resulting chain of events caused myself and the several cars behind me to miss a light. The virtue of kindness?

I honked. The chivalric driver exited his vehicle, confronted me, and demanded to know why I was offended by an act of kindness. I replied that his act resulted in five or six other people, in the right of way, being delayed. That his arbitrary decision to stop traffic flow by blocking a lane of traffic, without regard to the cars stacking up behind him, in order to feel good about himself, was not an "act of kindness", but an act of selfishness. Selfishness in that he did not consider the effects on others outside of his and her dyad.

Is this an example of a virtue becoming a vice?

Yes, I know, in the scheme of things, his action and the overall result was trivial. It is the only example I could come up with of a virtuous action being a vice.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered (as Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful. For example, Mr. Blatchford attacks Christianity because he is mad on one Christian virtue: the merely mystical and almost irrational virtue of charity. He has a strange idea that he will make it easier to forgive sins by saying that there are no sins to forgive. Mr. Blatchford is not only an early Christian, he is the only early Christian who ought really to have been eaten by lions. For in his case the pagan accusation is really true: his mercy would mean mere anarchy. He really is the enemy of the human race -- because he is so human. As the other extreme, we may take the acrid realist, who has deliberately killed in himself all human pleasure in happy tales or in the healing of the heart. Torquemada tortured people physically for the sake of moral truth. Zola tortured people morally for the sake of physical truth. But in Torquemada's time there was at least a system that could to some extent make righteousness and peace kiss each other. Now they do not even bow. But a much stronger case than these two of truth and pity can be found in the remarkable case of the dislocation of humility.

[Doom]

If I may give an example, empathy is trying to put oneself in another's position and to see a situation the way the other sees it. Sometimes, it is a good thing if it can inspire good works. For example, donating to a food bank because at one point, oneself was poor and struggling to make ends meet, and one has empathy for people in that position.

But putting oneself in the position of another is not necessarily good; if the position is that of a terrorist or a murderer, empathy becomes positively harmful.

In short, empathy is not necessarily a virtue; when detached from the natural law, it becomes what is known as "toxic empathy." This is what Charlie Kirk meant when he said that he doesn't believe in empathy, but rather compassion.

[Highlander]

I read, and thought about, the preceding two posts. They evoked, perhaps, a glimmer of understanding. The first, it seems to me, presents a macro view of the topic; the latter, a micro.

Let me begin with the food bank. What I seem to hear is that empathy can be evaluated based upon intent. If one donates to a food bank because one feels empathy for the hungry, one is virtuous. If one donates food to a food bank because one feels empathy for oneself because one wants a charitable tax credit, then one is not necessarily virtuous.

In my example of the traffic snarl, what can I conclude? There was a claimed act of kindness -- "I'm trying to be nice". It was performed by a person who stopped traffic to allow another to proceed against the right of way. Empathy and virtue? In doing so, his empathy/kindness was unkind to others who were denied the right of way. So, his feeling good about himself trumped others' convenience and feelings. These others were essentially innocents ... people impacted who had not chosen to be part of the virtuous interaction.

I very much like the term "toxic virtue". It seems to have a resonance with whatever "woke" means these days. An example might be affirmative action. In cases where an applicant to a university with stellar performance and credentials is denied admission in order to provide a place for a person with inferior performance and credentials due to things like melanin, place of birth, or current residence.

I am reminded of an advocate for locating halfway houses for various felons and substance addicts in white, upper and middle class neighborhoods -- for various virtuous reasons. Upon learning that such a house was going to be placed on her street, she then argued that placing such folk in such an environment was an unkindness to them.

Then the above musings led me to :

“Virtue is to be more feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience.”
— Adam Smith

In a more macro sense:

“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance.”
— The Open Society and Its Enemies ... Karl Popper