In Eucharistic Prayer III

[VeryTas]

In the third Eucharistic Prayer something has always struck me as odd. Maybe someone here can interpret it in a way that will make more sense. (Is it even a translation problem?) Between the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy Lord ...) and the Epiclesis (Therefore, O Lord ... by the same Spirit graciously make holy these gifts we have brought...) is this:

You are indeed Holy, O Lord, and all you have created rightly gives you praise, for through your Son our Lord Jesus Christ, by the power and working of the Holy Spirit, you give life to all things and make them holy ...

How does God give life to "all" things? Do we wrongly limit what we call life to biology?
And how does He make "all" things holy? Especially since in the Epiclesis the priest is about to ask Him to make these gifts holy. Are they not already holy, as part of all things?
[For some background on the third prayer, see https://paulturner.org/wp-content/uploa ... 08/ep3.pdf]

There was something similar in the 1962 Mass, but it was just before the Per Ipsum and the Communion rite:

By whom, O Lord, thou dost always create, sanctify, quicken, bless, and bestow upon us all these good things.

[peregrinator]

How does God give life to "all" things? Do we wrongly limit what we call life to biology?

Are there living things that do not have life from God?

[Doom]

Yes, that is exactly what I was wondering. I do not understand the question. God is "the creator of all things visible and invisible."

[VeryTas]

My first question was basically: Are all things alive?
My second question was: Does God make everything holy, and if so what does holy mean anymore?

[VeryTas]

Look, I am willing for Prayer #3 to be telling us profound things. For instance, that it is not just poetic license to say that all creation gives God praise (as if mountains were alive and conscious) since in the end in the new heavens and earth it will all be, and experienced to be, alive and holy. But until then it is counter-intuitive: not all things are what we call alive and holy. That's why I called it odd. Or is everyone else at Mass on such a contemplative level that they hear nothing odd?

[aussie_aussie_oi_oi]

I am usually focused on the next part:

Therefore, O Lord, as we celebrate the memorial of the saving Passion of your Son,
his wondrous Resurrection and Ascension into heaven,
and as we look forward to his second coming, we offer you in thanksgiving this holy and living sacrifice.
Look, we pray, upon the oblation of your Church and, recognising the sacrificial Victim by whose death
you willed to reconcile us to yourself, grant that we, who are nourished by the Body and Blood of your Son
and filled with his Holy Spirit, may become one body, one spirit in Christ.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Or, perhaps, everyone at Mass quite legitimately understands "all things" in this context to be all living things.

[Doom]

My first question was basically: Are all things alive?
My second question was: Does God make everything holy, and if so what does holy mean anymore?

Okay, I see the problem is that you are being rather literal

"You give life to all things" means "everything alive was given its life by you."

"You make all things holy" means "everything holy gets its holiness from ."

If literally everything is holy, that means nothing is.

[VeryTas]

What has been treated literally is the Latin. Prayer #3 is rendered today as, "you give life to all things and make them holy..." Before 2002 the exact same Latin was rendered this way: "... All life, all holiness comes from you ..."
Whether the Latin itself is strange or not, I think you may agree that the former English translation was more how we understand the prayer than the later translation (in the case of this little snippet, not all of Prayer #3).

[Doom]

No, you just aren't understanding basic English grammar

[VeryTas]

No, you just aren't understanding basic English grammar

Explain. For instance, isn't the grammar of "You make all things holy" ambiguous in English between these two understandings:
1. You make all things that are holy &
2. You make all things be holy

Could the Latin verb that was used, sanctificas (you make holy, you sanctify or consecrate), have even been a poor choice for expressing what was intended? (Horrors!)

[Doom]

Let me put it this way: I don't think many people interpret those lines the way you suggested

[VeryTas]

I apologize for dragging everyone into a concern about words that is apparently only mine. Paul warned Timothy about people who like to dispute over words.

[Highlander]

No, no, no. Word disputation is what makes life worth living. It has all the fury and rancor of a gladiatorial contest without the blood.

[Doom]

I apologize for dragging everyone into a concern about words that is apparently only mine. Paul warned Timothy about people who like to dispute over words.

Enough of that, there is no such thing as a statement so clear and precise that no further questions or clarifications can ever be requested. It was worth asking because you will now understand it correctly. When I said that it was a grammatically correct statement that you were misreading, it was not intended as a criticism, slight, or insult. I was trying to explain where your confusion originated.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

No, no, no. Word disputation is what makes life worth living. It has all the fury and rancor of a gladiatorial contest without the blood.

Obviously you haven't engaged in professional-level word disputations.

[peregrinator]

What has been treated literally is the Latin. Prayer #3 is rendered today as, "you give life to all things and make them holy..." Before 2002 the exact same Latin was rendered this way: "... All life, all holiness comes from you ..."
Whether the Latin itself is strange or not, I think you may agree that the former English translation was more how we understand the prayer than the later translation (in the case of this little snippet, not all of Prayer #3).

I don't know, the Latin is this:

vivíficas et sanctíficas univérsa

Which might be rendered "You give life to and sanctify the universe [of things?]". I'm not sure either English translation is wonderful tbh. Anyway, far be it from me to defend EP3.

[VeryTas]

I'm not sure either English translation is wonderful tbh. Anyway, far be it from me to defend EP3.

Touche'

[Highlander]

No, no, no. Word disputation is what makes life worth living. It has all the fury and rancor of a gladiatorial contest without the blood.

Obviously you haven't engaged in professional-level word disputations.

Well said. My experience has been more or less Class A Short-Season.

[anawim]

"I do not think that word means what you think it means." ~Inigo Montoya