Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Home to philosophers, theologians, (and wanna-bes in either category).
Gandalf the Grey
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:07 pm
Location: Annúminas
Religion: Catholic

Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Gandalf the Grey »

This first line from the Introduction of the Document is something that I immediately saw as blatantly heretical and derived from Gnosticism/Hermeticism/Freemasonry.
Every human person possesses an infinite dignity, inalienable grounded in his or her very being, which prevails in and beyond every circumstance, state, or situation the person may ever encounter.
So, basically what Tucho Fernandez and Francis are saying are that people are essentially not creatures of God but rather they are gods in themselves.

They're saying in contradiction to Jesus, to the Apostles, to Sacred Tradition and to numerous teachings of Doctors of the Church, theologians, etc, that sin does nothing to injure or destroy human dignity, because that which is infinite by definition cannot have an end or a beginning, it always is. They're essentially saying that the doctrine of Original Sin is a myth, since Adam and Eve are also human persons, thus with "infinite dignity," so their disobedience against God supposedly had no actual effect on them. (Which seems to me to be e a derivative of the conception of human anthropology that says that humans are essentially primordial gods in themselves who were stolen from a primordial paradise and imprisoned by the Demiurge in physical bodies and thus that the what you do in your body has no effect on your soul. This is definitely a Gnostic belief).

Thus by this document they are saying that humanity didn't need a Savior, since nothing had supposedly been actually lost in Adam and Eve's sin, there was really no point to Christ's afflictions and Redemptive Sacrifice to win Atonement for all Men. (Hence their emphasis on "Christ" as the social organizer/reformer and activist for equity at expense of most other aspects).

I'm not the only one who immediately picked up on this either.

From Ed Feser on "X":
Today there was an eclipse. I’m speaking, of course, of man’s eclipse of God, which was visible, if you could bear to let yourself look at it, in the first line of the new DDF document: “Every human person possesses an infinite dignity.”

No, as the Catholic faith has always taught, only a single human person possesses that – Christ, and only because He is God, not because He is human. God alone has infinite dignity.

This expression of excessive human self-regard is scandalous, but, sad to say, not unprecedented in this pontificate. In Evangelii Gaudium, in 2013, Pope Francis said:

“The first and the greatest of the commandments, and the one that best identifies us as Christ’s disciples [is]: ‘This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you’”

What Christ Himself actually said about which commandment is first and greatest is, of course:

“You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment” (Matthew 22:37-38)

You don’t need a course in logic, but just a minimally functioning intellect, to see the direct contradiction between these statements. They can’t possibly both be right.

And, needless to say, they have radically different implications. The new DDF document’s extreme statement on the death penalty, which also contradicts scripture (along with every previous pope who has spoken on the subject), is an example.

Where you choose to start – with God or with man – is going to determine where you end up.
"God loves us just as we are, but He loves us too much to allow us to stay that way." - Scott Hahn

"It is not the task of man to reform the Church, but rather it is the task of the Church to reform man." - Nicholas of Cusa
Stella
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:04 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Stella »

'Infinite dignity' of the human person can be traced back to the teaching of St JPII. In an Angelus teaching in 1980 he says...

Together with all of you, we will immediately praise God and thank him for the great gift of his love.

This love is the reason for your hope and your courage to live. In Jesus Christ, God has shown us in an unsurpassable way how he loves every single person and thereby gives them infinite dignity.


https://www.vatican.va/content/john-pau ... 01116.html

Bear in mind that Ed Feser is an outspoken advocate for the death penalty so it is necessary for him to believe that some people don't have that dignity.
User avatar
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
Posts: 988
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Location: Not quite 90 degrees
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Obi-Wan Kenobi »

That last sentence is not correct.

But I do think that placing a lot of emphasis on "infinite" is reading the document with perhaps more care than with which it was prepared.
User avatar
VeryTas
Pioneer
Pioneer
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:04 pm
Location: WA
Religion: Catholic
Contact:

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by VeryTas »

Stella wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm 'Infinite dignity' of the human person can be traced back to the teaching of St JPII. In an Angelus teaching in 1980 he says...
Together with all of you, we will immediately praise God and thank him for the great gift of his love.
This love is the reason for your hope and your courage to live. In Jesus Christ, God has shown us in an unsurpassable way how he loves every single person and thereby gives them infinite dignity.

https://www.vatican.va/content/john-pau ... 01116.html
(The link to the JPII quote came through for me in German, and English was not a choice given there.)
"Infinite" may soon join "absolute" as an adjective losing meaning. And the term "dignity" is liable to save us the trouble of moral discernment. As long as every person has this much dignity, how dare we presume to relate to them in any way; rather we will have to hope to be allowed worship them. And philosophically or linguistically what is going on when such dignity can so easily be "diminished"? If God has given it, who can really take it away?
Stella
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:04 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Stella »

VeryTas wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:32 pm
(The link to the JPII quote came through for me in German, and English was not a choice given there.)
Do you have the facility to right click over the text and Translate to English?
"Infinite" may soon join "absolute" as an adjective losing meaning. And the term "dignity" is liable to save us the trouble of moral discernment. As long as every person has this much dignity, how dare we presume to relate to them in any way; rather we will have to hope to be allowed worship them. And philosophically or linguistically what is going on when such dignity can so easily be "diminished"? If God has given it, who can really take it away?
The test of the right spirit of self love is documented in the declaration… and that is how we see that very dignity in others. The unborn, the poor and marginalised, homeless, immigrants and all kinds of victims of evil.

There’s always been people that see themselves as special (Gnostics) which doesn’t in turn humble them and uplift others. The document says that the dignity of the human being can be known by natural reason. That I believe is evidenced in the phenomenon of walking in another’s shoes. A secular person is capable of feeling ‘lucky’ in an undeserved way and turning that towards others who aren’t so ‘lucky’ in an undeserved way, to assist them.

I can get on board with my ‘infinite dignity’ but I believe that it’s basic to Scripture teaching that I’d have interpreted it in a distorted way if it didn’t impact first and foremost, my treatment and attitude towards others.
User avatar
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
Posts: 988
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Location: Not quite 90 degrees
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Obi-Wan Kenobi »

The context given in the St. JP II quote is what I suspected: It is the love of God that confers that dignity. It's not intrinsic to being human.

I don't know whose side here that helps or hurts, but context is usually a good thing.
Stella
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:04 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Stella »

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:08 pm The context given in the St. JP II quote is what I suspected: It is the love of God that confers that dignity. It's not intrinsic to being human.
What would be an example of a human that didn't have dignity if it isn't intrinsic to being human?
Gandalf the Grey
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:07 pm
Location: Annúminas
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Gandalf the Grey »

VeryTas wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:32 pm
Stella wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 6:24 pm 'Infinite dignity' of the human person can be traced back to the teaching of St JPII. In an Angelus teaching in 1980 he says...
Together with all of you, we will immediately praise God and thank him for the great gift of his love.
This love is the reason for your hope and your courage to live. In Jesus Christ, God has shown us in an unsurpassable way how he loves every single person and thereby gives them infinite dignity.

https://www.vatican.va/content/john-pau ... 01116.html
(The link to the JPII quote came through for me in German, and English was not a choice given there.)
"Infinite" may soon join "absolute" as an adjective losing meaning. And the term "dignity" is liable to save us the trouble of moral discernment. As long as every person has this much dignity, how dare we presume to relate to them in any way; rather we will have to hope to be allowed worship them. And philosophically or linguistically what is going on when such dignity can so easily be "diminished"? If God has given it, who can really take it away?
I'm even rather suspect on the Google translate regarding the phrase "unendliche Würde verleiht" because the term "unendliche" is rendered as "infinite" but when you put it into an independent German dictionary it also shows that it has several other meanings such as "tremendous" or "immense."

We can both agree that human dignity is of its nature of more value than most any other created thing, that it is tremendous and immense, and by grace even eternal.

But there is an entire difference between eternal and infinite.and it's not something that you can just gloss over because of some inordinate desire to improve people's self-esteem. It's bad enough that there pervasion of moral and philosophical subjectivism has given too many modern people then tendency to already act-out the belief that they're essentially gods, the Catholic Church doesn't need to be adding to that pathology.
"God loves us just as we are, but He loves us too much to allow us to stay that way." - Scott Hahn

"It is not the task of man to reform the Church, but rather it is the task of the Church to reform man." - Nicholas of Cusa
Gandalf the Grey
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:07 pm
Location: Annúminas
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Gandalf the Grey »

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:08 pm The context given in the St. JP II quote is what I suspected: It is the love of God that confers that dignity. It's not intrinsic to being human.

I don't know whose side here that helps or hurts, but context is usually a good thing.
What I've always read and studied in regards to human dignity is that it is not ontologically intrinsic to us as humans but rather it is relative to our relationship with God and conferred on us through grace. Thomas Aquinas states that it is only Jesus and Mary who can be said to possess infinite dignity, Jesus by His divine nature and Mary through the grace of God conferred on her as the Theotokos. Pope Leo XXIII in TAMETSI FUTURA
PROSPICIENTIBUS
(paragraph 6) stated that it is through our willingness to suffer with Christ that our dignity depends on and through which it is conferred on us.

Francis and Fernandez OTOH their notion of dignity seems to depend less on Sacred Tradition or previous Magisterial teaching but rather on statements from the U.N. or other secular organizations.

Apparently it seems that the world is now informing the Church on how things ought to be instead of vice-versa.
"God loves us just as we are, but He loves us too much to allow us to stay that way." - Scott Hahn

"It is not the task of man to reform the Church, but rather it is the task of the Church to reform man." - Nicholas of Cusa
User avatar
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
Posts: 988
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Location: Not quite 90 degrees
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Obi-Wan Kenobi »

Stella wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 10:51 pm
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:08 pm The context given in the St. JP II quote is what I suspected: It is the love of God that confers that dignity. It's not intrinsic to being human.
What would be an example of a human that didn't have dignity if it isn't intrinsic to being human?
Your question assumes that God does not love some people.
User avatar
VeryTas
Pioneer
Pioneer
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:04 pm
Location: WA
Religion: Catholic
Contact:

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by VeryTas »

Gandalf the Grey wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:03 am We can both agree that human dignity is of its nature of more value than most any other created thing, that it is tremendous and immense, and by grace even eternal.
But there is an entire difference between eternal and infinite.and it's not something that you can just gloss over because of some inordinate desire to improve people's self-esteem. It's bad enough that there pervasion of moral and philosophical subjectivism has given too many modern people then tendency to already act-out the belief that they're essentially gods, the Catholic Church doesn't need to be adding to that pathology.
I am going only slightly off topic here. You hear people say, "I will be eternally grateful (if)..." They of course mean very grateful (and will remember the favor for a long time). I never presume to put it that way, even if I am very grateful. What if in heaven it were God's will that certain good things that happened on earth be forgotten?
Stella
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:04 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Stella »

Gandalf the Grey wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 9:03 am But there is an entire difference between eternal and infinite.and it's not something that you can just gloss over because of some inordinate desire to improve people's self-esteem. It's bad enough that there pervasion of moral and philosophical subjectivism has given too many modern people then tendency to already act-out the belief that they're essentially gods, the Catholic Church doesn't need to be adding to that pathology.
I'm not reading the document as something to 'improve people's self esteem' but rather to increase our love for others. That's where there is a big imbalance to be resolved. The second of the greatest commandments is to ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ When we treat others badly it's a reflection of how we feel about ourselves and there's a toxic cross pollination going on. To experience our own inherent dignity especially in Confession where I come with brokenness and all that is wiped away because I am so special to God. Wow He sent His only Son to die a dreadful death on the Cross for me because I am so lovable to Him. But all of that, He did for every other person as well. If I really get that how could I ever treat the other badly?
User avatar
Kage_ar
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:52 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Kage_ar »

IMHO, Mr Feser has jumped the shark. If Pope Francis wrote an encyclical "Herba viridis est, caelum caeruleum est", Mr Feser and his die hard fans would find it to be heretical because grass turns brown in the winter.
Trophy Dwarf, remember??

Admin note: I am sad to report the passing of this poster, a long time community member and dear friend. May the Perpetual Light shine upon Kelly (kage_ar) and through the mercy of God may she rest in peace.
User avatar
Doom
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:38 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Doom »

Kage_ar wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:40 pm IMHO, Mr Feser has jumped the shark. If Pope Francis wrote an encyclical "Herba viridis est, caelum caeruleum est", Mr Feser and his die hard fans would find it to be heretical because grass turns brown in the winter.
The example I always give is that if the Pope said 2+2=4 they would call it heresy because he didn't take arithmetic modulo 3 into account.
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
User avatar
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
Posts: 988
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Location: Not quite 90 degrees
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Obi-Wan Kenobi »

Kage_ar wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:40 pm IMHO, Mr Feser has jumped the shark. If Pope Francis wrote an encyclical "Herba viridis est, caelum caeruleum est", Mr Feser and his die hard fans would find it to be heretical because grass turns brown in the winter.
I don't think Feser is that far gone. But mention of the death penalty is blood in the water to him.
Stella
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2023 4:04 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Stella »

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2024 11:03 am
Stella wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 10:51 pm
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: Tue Apr 09, 2024 9:08 pm The context given in the St. JP II quote is what I suspected: It is the love of God that confers that dignity. It's not intrinsic to being human.
What would be an example of a human that didn't have dignity if it isn't intrinsic to being human?
Your question assumes that God does not love some people.
A document from 2020 on care for people in the terminal phase of life, makes reference to this infinite dignity as both it seems, conferred by God and intrinsic by nature.

"The Church affirms that the positive meaning of human life is something already knowable by right reason, and in the light of faith is confirmed and understood in its inalienable dignity. This criterion is neither subjective nor arbitrary but is founded on a natural inviolable dignity. Life is the first good because it is the basis for the enjoyment of every other good including the transcendent vocation to share the trinitarian love of the living God to which every human being is called: “The special love of the Creator for each human being ‘confers upon him or her an infinite dignity’. The uninfringeable value of life is a fundamental principle of the natural moral law and an essential foundation of the legal order."

A distinction without a difference as they say.

https://press.vatican.va/content/salast ... 0922a.html
User avatar
peregrinator
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 622
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:25 pm
Location: I left my heart in Chartres
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by peregrinator »

Kage_ar wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:40 pm IMHO, Mr Feser has jumped the shark. If Pope Francis wrote an encyclical "Herba viridis est, caelum caeruleum est", Mr Feser and his die hard fans would find it to be heretical because grass turns brown in the winter.
On the contrary his criticisms of Pope Francis are very measured, mild even.
User avatar
gherkin
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:09 am
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by gherkin »

peregrinator wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:39 am
Kage_ar wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:40 pm IMHO, Mr Feser has jumped the shark. If Pope Francis wrote an encyclical "Herba viridis est, caelum caeruleum est", Mr Feser and his die hard fans would find it to be heretical because grass turns brown in the winter.
On the contrary his criticisms of Pope Francis are very measured, mild even.
Agree. Feser's not some kind of knee jerk anti-Francis crusader. Quite the contrary. But he is a philosopher, so he has a strong negative reaction to careless, sloppy talk, especially when it comes from places of some authority and tends to mislead.
User avatar
peregrinator
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 622
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:25 pm
Location: I left my heart in Chartres
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by peregrinator »

gherkin wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:54 am
peregrinator wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:39 am
Kage_ar wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:40 pm IMHO, Mr Feser has jumped the shark. If Pope Francis wrote an encyclical "Herba viridis est, caelum caeruleum est", Mr Feser and his die hard fans would find it to be heretical because grass turns brown in the winter.
On the contrary his criticisms of Pope Francis are very measured, mild even.
Agree. Feser's not some kind of knee jerk anti-Francis crusader. Quite the contrary. But he is a philosopher, so he has a strong negative reaction to careless, sloppy talk, especially when it comes from places of some authority and tends to mislead.
He hasn't even called for Francis to be deposed
User avatar
Doom
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:38 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: Ed Feser on "Dignitas Infinita"

Post by Doom »

gherkin wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 8:54 am
peregrinator wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:39 am
Kage_ar wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:40 pm IMHO, Mr Feser has jumped the shark. If Pope Francis wrote an encyclical "Herba viridis est, caelum caeruleum est", Mr Feser and his die hard fans would find it to be heretical because grass turns brown in the winter.
On the contrary his criticisms of Pope Francis are very measured, mild even.
Agree. Feser's not some kind of knee jerk anti-Francis crusader. Quite the contrary. But he is a philosopher, so he has a strong negative reaction to careless, sloppy talk, especially when it comes from places of some authority and tends to mislead.
Maybe but there is something childish and petty about nitpicking every little thing.
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
Post Reply