a contradiction about prayer

[BobCatholic]

I see a contradiction when it comes to prayer.

On the one hand, we have examples of St. Monica and Christ's teaching about the dishonest judge - to just keep praying no matter what and eventually you'll get what you're praying for.

On the other hand, we have to submit to God's will. If God said no to a prayer, game over, He's not changing His mind, because no request outside of His will, will ever get a yes. So if God says no, game over, stop praying, the prayer is worthless.

Then we have the example of the exodus when people were complaining about starving and God said "you want food? OK I'll give you so much food you'll be overwhelmed" and rained down the quail. He clearly was angry that they asked for something outside of His will.

So, when should I give up on praying for something I believe to be good?

[peregrinator]

A couple things:

1 - Prayer doesn't change God (God is immutable), prayer changes us.

2 - God does will some things contingently (that is - contingent on our prayers!).

I would keep praying.

[anawim]

I see a contradiction when it comes to prayer.

On the one hand, we have examples of St. Monica and Christ's teaching about the dishonest judge - to just keep praying no matter what and eventually you'll get what you're praying for.

On the other hand, we have to submit to God's will. If God said no to a prayer, game over, He's not changing His mind, because no request outside of His will, will ever get a yes. So if God says no, game over, stop praying, the prayer is worthless.

Then we have the example of the exodus when people were complaining about starving and God said "you want food? OK I'll give you so much food you'll be overwhelmed" and rained down the quail. He clearly was angry that they asked for something outside of His will.

So, when should I give up on praying for something I believe to be good?

Sometimes the answer is wait. Since we don't know, I keep praying.
Also, my prayer is often: Give me the desires of my heart, or change my heart. He usually does one or the other.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

So, when should I give up on praying for something I believe to be good?

When it would no longer be useful for the prayer to be answered.

[VeryTas]

A couple things:
1 - Prayer doesn't change God (God is immutable), prayer changes us.
2 - God does will some things contingently (that is - contingent on our prayers!).
I would keep praying.

These points have always struck me as some kind of double-talk. (For instance, is it even true that we "change" by doing something.) Jesus way of commending prayer was not subject to later philosophy or modern psychology.

I have a (related) reflection for Bob Catholic. We are promised many things in Scripture and from Jesus' mouth. Yet this does not keep us from praying for them. Then does our praying for them represent a lack of faith?

[peregrinator]

For instance, is it even true that we "change" by doing something.

Yes, God changes us.

[Kage_ar]

the prayer is worthless.

No prayer is ever "worthless", a prayer may be in error "I pray that they lose the game because we are better".

We pray "if it be your will" when we do not know God's will. For instance, I am praying for the conversion of Sally Jo. I do not need to say "If it be your will" because it is God's will that all people come to Him.

On the other hand, "God, let Mary Jo have a miracle and her cancer be GONE if it is your will" is the correct way to pray. We cannot know, perhaps God wills for Mary Jo to be cancer free in the next life and not in this life.

[BobCatholic]

So how do I handle the contradiction?

One part says "keep praying" and the other one is "don't keep praying, you're asking God to change His will"

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

You're not asking God to change His will. Peregrinator's second point is key here: God wills to give us some things on the condition that we ask for them. His will doesn't change. Our relationship to Him changes.

[BobCatholic]

So what happens if I don't get what I'm praying for - even if that thing is good?

Am I supposed to give up since God clearly said no?

I have been praying 14 years for my son to be healed of his autism. We're getting older and we're not rich, so if we die, he's going to be put in a state home, where he will be raped, hurt, beat up and other bad things.

God keeps saying no.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Has God clearly said, "No"? Or are you just out of patience?

[BobCatholic]

Has God clearly said, "No"? Or are you just out of patience?

That's the thing - I don't know. God doesn't talk to me.

Should I stop or should I keep praying? I cannot discern. That's why I want to know when it is simply a waste.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

It is never a waste.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

If I may speak more directly to your situation:

Asking for a cure for autism is a big ask, and I can't think of a whole lot of examples of healings of that sort. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is not likely. You don't have to give up asking for it, but I suggest you also ask that, no matter what happens, your son be taken care of.

[BobCatholic]

If I may speak more directly to your situation:

Asking for a cure for autism is a big ask, and I can't think of a whole lot of examples of healings of that sort. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is not likely. You don't have to give up asking for it, but I suggest you also ask that, no matter what happens, your son be taken care of.

I know it is not likely. That's why I'm thinking of giving up since it is a waste. God keeps saying no.

The only other way my kid would survive is if I somehow became very wealthy (like multi-decamillionaire) then I can arrange for him to be taken care of after we die. Unfortunately, that's too much depending on money for my taste for that ask, so I preferred to ask for the healing, that way I depend on God.

So how do I discern whether I should stop and just give up since God says no for 14 years or keep going hoping for a St. Monica miracle.

[gherkin]

A waste of what? Surely this isn't a case where you can choose between (a) praying for your son or (b) some other good thing. Surely, you can include prayers for your son in your day at no "cost." So what's being wasted? Just keep praying. There is no discernible difference between an unspoken "no" and an unspoken "not yet," and as you say God hasn't, in fact, told you no. So you assume it's cool to pray for your son and do it. Really, there's no issue here at all.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Don't stop. Period.

[Vern Humphrey]

My wife of over 58 years died last week after 12 years of suffering from extreme dementia. That's a nightmare for her caregiver.

I composed a prayer that helped:

"Help me Father. Help me to love this woman more today than I loved her yesterday. Help me to love her even more tomorrow.

Help me to grow and increase my love for her every day, day by day, as long as we live.

Help me, Father, to be stronger, kinder, and gentler, to be more patient, more understanding and more loving every day, day by day, every day as long as we live.

Help me, Father, to be a better man, for her sake."

This prayer works, but you have to be sincere and you have to MAKE it work.

Do not pray for the burden to be lifted from your shoulders. Pray for stronger shoulders.

[anawim]

My wife of over 58 years died last week after 12 years of suffering from extreme dementia. That's a nightmare for her caregiver.

I composed a prayer that helped:

"Help me Father. Help me to love this woman more today than I loved her yesterday. Help me to love her even more tomorrow.

Help me to grow and increase my love for her every day, day by day, as long as we live.

Help me, Father, to be stronger, kinder, and gentler, to be more patient, more understanding and more loving every day, day by day, every day as long as we live.

Help me, Father, to be a better man, for her sake."

This prayer works, but you have to be sincere and you have to MAKE it work.

Do not pray for the burden to be lifted from your shoulders. Pray for stronger shoulders.

My condolences. May she rest in peace, and may she have heard the words, "well done, good and faithful servant".

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

May she rest in peace. Thank you for taking care of her, and thank you for sharing this.