Demasculinizing the Church

[Stella]

Pope Francis address to the Theological Commission today is a good read but this part is important.

Women have a capacity for theological reflection that is different to that of us men. It will be because I have studied the theology of a woman a great deal. I was helped by a good German woman, Hanna-Barbara Gerl, on Guardini. She had studied that history and the theology of that woman was not so deep, but it is beautiful, it is creative. And now, in the upcoming meeting of the nine Cardinals, we will reflect on the feminine dimension of the Church.

The Church is woman. And if we do not know what a woman is, what the theology of a woman is, we will never understand what the Church is. One of the great sins we have had is to “masculinize” the Church. And this is not solved by the ministerial path; that is something else. It is resolved in the mystical way, the real way. Balthasar’s thought has brought me so much light: Petrine principle and Marian principle. This can be debated, but the two principles are there. The Marian is more important than the Petrine, because there is the bride Church, the woman Church, without being masculine.

And you will ask me: where does this discussion lead? Not only to tell you that you should have more women here – that is one thing – but to help reflect. The Church as woman, the Church as a bride. And this is a task that I ask of you, please. To make the Church less masculine.

https://press.vatican.va/content/salast ... 1130a.html

I understand why this raises a frightening prospect for some men ideologically who might equate it with emasculation of the Church. My response would be to look at the well functioning families in todays society which reflect a successful demasculinization in their structure compared to the overly idealized goal of the 50's household and the inequalities suffered by wives in the past. Of course, the times required those more masculinized structures in the past but once the times no longer require that, it turns into an ideological oppression of women. It only makes sense that for the Church to have the qualities of a bride, women need to bring that with all their God given gifts.

[Doom]

The problem with the Church in the West is exactly the opposite, it is much too feminine, and this fact is one of the main reasons keeping men out of the Church. Notice that almost all lay readers, altar servers, musicians, and members of the choir are women, most positions in religious education are held by women, and most positions of lay leadership such as a parish council, if there is one, are held by women. The only halfway noticeable male presence is the Knights of Columbus, assuming there is a chapter at your parish, and they only appear at most one weekend a month.

There are two major problems the Church in the West has: attracting men and attracting single adults. Parish life is so geared towards marriage and family that single people, like myself, are excluded from 90% of parish events. I cannot be, and in fact, I know I'm not, the only middle-aged single person in my parish. Why isn't there a parish group or occasional event geared towards us? They know how many single people are in the parish.

[gherkin]

My response would be to look at the well functioning families in todays society which reflect a successful demasculinization in their structure compared to the overly idealized goal of the 50's household and the inequalities suffered by wives in the past. Of course, the times required those more masculinized structures in the past but once the times no longer require that, it turns into an ideological oppression of women. It only makes sense that for the Church to have the qualities of a bride, women need to bring that with all their God given gifts.

The 50's household in America--the so-called nuclear family, with only one generation living together, and the man working outside the home as a wage slave--is a product of capitalism, which itself is a product of Protestantism. If we can extend our view backwards a little more than 70 years, we'll see that the real harm to the family was when most men were forced to work outside of the household, especially in a culture like ours that was already atomizing generations by spreading families around the continent. As always, Wendell Berry's the Unsettling of America, though itself written by a Protestant, is priceless on this.

ETA: of course, it's also worth noting that demasculinization has happened in the west to an amazing degree, as can be seen in the simplest way by reflecting on the number of fatherless children and husbandless mothers. It kind of feels like demasculinization can be a pretty bad bad thing, for men and for those who ought to be to count on them to be men. One hesitates to point out the effeminacy of so many priests, but it's there, too.

BTW, the best functioning families I know of in my little world, in the sense that the couples generally stay married and a good percentage of the kids stay Catholic, are homeschooling families where the dads are wage slaves and the moms are at home. I don't idealize this situation, because of the lack of groundedness we have, and the still-dominant single-generation mode of living. But it's obviously far better than a two-working-parent home where the kids are outsourced and leave the Faith by college (if they were ever truly within it) in astonishingly large percentages.

[gherkin]

The problem with the Church in the West is exactly the opposite, it is much too feminine, and this fact is one of the main reasons keeping men out of the Church. Notice that almost all lay readers, altar servers, musicians, and members of the choir are women, most positions in religious education are held by women, and most positions of lay leadership such as a parish council, if there is one, are held by women. The only halfway noticeable male presence is the Knights of Columbus, assuming there is a chapter at your parish, and they only appear at most one weekend a month.

In general, I agree with this, but it is somewhat regional. Some of it depends on the culture of the diocese as a whole. (Do the bishop and his priests actually seek out and help nurture vocations to the priesthood? In my diocese, thank God, we have a Catholic bishop and a flourishing seminary program with relatively many outstanding young men in formation. Of course, most of those young men are from the Latin mass communities in the diocese. I can't say how many were homeschooled, but my guess is it's a meaningful number.) Some of it depends on other variables. In my little rural church here in the former Bible belt, we're blessed with lots of active men in the parish. Unfortunately, though understandably, many of the young families who "should" belong to our parish geographically go to other nearby-ish churches with a more reverent liturgy. Our priests have been for some years Cameroonians, and they are wonderful priests, very orthodox and pastoral, but their liturgical sense is understandably different. Also, our church is ugly. But we love it. Anyway, the men are very involved. I think in the Bible belt, it's still pretty normal for men to go to church.

[Doom]

It's a process that has been in progress for a very long time, note that as early as the 18th century skeptics like Voltaire were ridiculing Christianity as a "woman's religion"

[peregrinator]

The really funny part about this is that it is Pope Francis who appoints members to the ITC. So if there is a lack of women members of the ITC, the blame is his and his alone.

[gherkin]

NM.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

TX

[anawim]

I agree with Doom

[Stella]

The problem with the Church in the West is exactly the opposite, it is much too feminine, and this fact is one of the main reasons keeping men out of the Church. Notice that almost all lay readers, altar servers, musicians, and members of the choir are women, most positions in religious education are held by women, and most positions of lay leadership such as a parish council, if there is one, are held by women. The only halfway noticeable male presence is the Knights of Columbus, assuming there is a chapter at your parish, and they only appear at most one weekend a month.

There are two major problems the Church in the West has: attracting men and attracting single adults. Parish life is so geared towards marriage and family that single people, like myself, are excluded from 90% of parish events. I cannot be, and in fact, I know I'm not, the only middle-aged single person in my parish. Why isn't there a parish group or occasional event geared towards us? They know how many single people are in the parish.

The local parishes are really the only places you’ll find women’s roles though. In the realms where major problems in the Church are addressed or direction of the Church determined or theological work done, it’s very masculine orientated. I personally believe that real female authority… a maternal authority… in dealing with pedophile Priests would have made a huge difference.

I've encountered dismissive masculinity lots of times in my Catholic life especially in Catholic higher education. Not from the theology teachers but from mature male students in courses. Seminarians included.

I do sympathize with older singles though. My oldest son is a mid 30's single and has aged out of adult youth ministry and is in the wind a bit now as well.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

The local parishes are really the only places you’ll find women’s roles though.

That would come as news to our diocesan chancellor.

[Stella]

My response would be to look at the well functioning families in todays society which reflect a successful demasculinization in their structure compared to the overly idealized goal of the 50's household and the inequalities suffered by wives in the past. Of course, the times required those more masculinized structures in the past but once the times no longer require that, it turns into an ideological oppression of women. It only makes sense that for the Church to have the qualities of a bride, women need to bring that with all their God given gifts.

The 50's household in America--the so-called nuclear family, with only one generation living together, and the man working outside the home as a wage slave--is a product of capitalism, which itself is a product of Protestantism. If we can extend our view backwards a little more than 70 years, we'll see that the real harm to the family was when most men were forced to work outside of the household, especially in a culture like ours that was already atomizing generations by spreading families around the continent. As always, Wendell Berry's the Unsettling of America, though itself written by a Protestant, is priceless on this.

ETA: of course, it's also worth noting that demasculinization has happened in the west to an amazing degree, as can be seen in the simplest way by reflecting on the number of fatherless children and husbandless mothers. It kind of feels like demasculinization can be a pretty bad bad thing, for men and for those who ought to be to count on them to be men. One hesitates to point out the effeminacy of so many priests, but it's there, too.

BTW, the best functioning families I know of in my little world, in the sense that the couples generally stay married and a good percentage of the kids stay Catholic, are homeschooling families where the dads are wage slaves and the moms are at home. I don't idealize this situation, because of the lack of groundedness we have, and the still-dominant single-generation mode of living. But it's obviously far better than a two-working-parent home where the kids are outsourced and leave the Faith by college (if they were ever truly within it) in astonishingly large percentages.

I know a lot of those ills are often cited as the result of feminism or feminization of society but I don’t buy that. In fact extreme patriarchy and misogyny in history is evident in family dysfunction and breakdown especially when women had no control over family finance or when violence was a legitimate or at least not illegal, way to control a wife and children.

The Catholic Church has been slow to recognize in its own structure, the value of women in the ‘engine room’ the way society has and that was an important goal of Vatican II. This is an interesting read regarding the discussion about women at the Council.

The World Union of Catholic Women’s Organisations, which represented about 36 million Catholic women, wrote its first council petition back in 1960. It listed very fundamental topics which the Council was to deal with: the redefinition of the personal dignity of women and the position of women in the family, society and Church. On the one hand, the representatives of the association warned against idealizing women. On the other, they claimed that the emancipation of women should not adopt male role models.

The other great concern regarded Christian family life. Proposals ranged from the number of children to the age of confirmation
Which wishes of Catholic women at the Council were fulfilled - and which were not?

Even in the 1960s, Catholic women did not always agree. While German Catholics were extremely happy with the liturgical reform, English Catholics preferred to keep the Latin Mass.

Contraception and embarrassing situations in the confessional were a big question that was also debated internationally. Many Catholic couples interpreted ‘Gaudium et spes’ in such a way that artificial contraception was now permitted. When the encyclical “Humanae vitae” appeared in 1968, it turned out that they had been wrong.

Again and again, Catholic women also suggested that women should be involved in the training of priests. In other words, this meant that they were dissatisfied with the pastoral work. As we know, this demand has increasingly been taken up by bishops in recent years. Another often mentioned desire was that of women deacons - a desire that still remains open after the recent statements of Pope Francis who said it will take 100 years to implement the Council, and only half of the work has yet been done. So maybe some of the women’s desires will be fulfilled in later years.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-c ... eyder.html

The suggestion made back then of Catholic women being involved in training priests is inspired. One of things I enjoy most is having discussions with my cousin who’s a Priest of 30 years now. He’s always eager to hear my take on something from the point of view of a lay woman and mother of adults. If people like the mothers of boys who enter the seminary, had a presence in some capacity, I believe it would be a really good thing.

I don’t know much about homeschooler families. If it’s a thing around here it must be for other reasons than Catholicism because I’ve never come across any at the parishes I’ve been associated with. The thing that’s always stood out to me in parishes is across the board, the presence of good, holy, old fashioned retired Catholic couples involved in the ministries and committees. They go to daily Mass and are welcoming and unaffected. My parents were that couple. They seem to me to be an under utilized resource. One Priest we had would bring the younger kids in for weekday Mass and spread them around amongst the parishioners already seated which was brilliant. A small step. Faith by osmosis.

[Stella]

The local parishes are really the only places you’ll find women’s roles though.

That would come as news to our diocesan chancellor.

Well parish/diocese. The Pope was addressing the Theological Commission in his address so that's where a major deficiency still exists.

[Doom]

Please explain to me how it is that for the last 300 years or so, one popular attack on Christianity is that it is "a woman's religion" if the Church is, in fact, male dominated.
"

[Stella]

Please explain to me how it is that for the last 300 years or so, one popular attack on Christianity is that it is "a woman's religion" if the Church is, in fact, male dominated.
"

Give me some of the reasoning used to make that claim. To me is sounds like it comes from an ideology that might see the mystical nature of the Sacraments and mystery in general, as 'airy fairy'. Perhaps its a view of the deists of old or atheists who reject any notion of mystery and the Holy Spirit among us?

[Kage_ar]

From personal experience, the vast majority of volunteers, staff at the department, and parish, and diocese levels are women. The majority of those in the pews are women. The men who are active in the parish tend to be age 70+

[peregrinator]

Yes, women are the backbone of parishes (and probably dioceses as well, tbh - I think most chancery employees tend to be women). That Pope Francis doesn't know this speaks to his lack of experience in parishes.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Give me some of the reasoning used to make that claim. To me is sounds like it comes from an ideology that might see the mystical nature of the Sacraments and mystery in general, as 'airy fairy'. Perhaps its a view of the deists of old or atheists who reject any notion of mystery and the Holy Spirit among us?

It comes from observation. The sizable majority of congregations in most places is female.

[Doom]

Give me some of the reasoning used to make that claim. To me is sounds like it comes from an ideology that might see the mystical nature of the Sacraments and mystery in general, as 'airy fairy'. Perhaps its a view of the deists of old or atheists who reject any notion of mystery and the Holy Spirit among us?

It comes from observation. The sizable majority of congregations in most places is female.

And it has been that way for a very long time

[Stella]

Give me some of the reasoning used to make that claim. To me is sounds like it comes from an ideology that might see the mystical nature of the Sacraments and mystery in general, as 'airy fairy'. Perhaps its a view of the deists of old or atheists who reject any notion of mystery and the Holy Spirit among us?

It comes from observation. The sizable majority of congregations in most places is female.

Pope Francis is rightly referencing the engine rooms of the Church though. The areas that determine what course to take or how to address problems or matters of theological discussion. It’s not about the number of women in parishes. A business could employ 80% women who do the same job as a male employee but get paid less for it. No matter how many women are present, there’s nothing they can do about that because the law itself was masculinized. It’s only recently that that sort of disparity has changed.